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1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU 1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU

09-03-2013 , 11:57 PM
Monday night at Mandalay Bay. At this point table is five regs and 3 empty seats, i.e. 6 max.

Villain is in seat 1, hero is in seat 7. Villain is Brazilian and has been playing pretty aggro both preflop and postflop. His VPIP/PFR is something like 45/26. We have had a bit of dynamics going on. On our first hand I check/raised the flop with an OESD against his PFR and c-bet and took it down on the turn after firing a 1/2 psb. On another hand I raised in MP with JJ, he called OTB with TT and raised my c-bet when the flop came 9 high with two clubs. I called, it went check/check on turn Ks and check/check on river Ad and he seemed mildly annoyed as I raked in the pot. In another hand I made a PFR and fired two barrels after a Q high flop and he folded with a frown on his face.

I have been opening a lot with $7 PFRs to keep a somewhat higher SPR postflop. I was hoping that I would get 3bet with my big pairs after doing this for a while with the rest of my range.

In this hand hero starts with ~$320 and villain covers.

Folds to hero in HJ who finds A A. Hero raises to $7. CO folds, villain on BTN calls, blinds fold. Flop comes J 8 4. Hero bets $11, BTN calls with a look of slight anger in his eyes. Turn A. Hero bets $20, BTN raises to $40. Hero ???

On one hand, I liked a 3bet to shovel money into the middle and set up a larger river leadout. But seeing a 3bet allows a "frustrated" villain to shut down on both his "take a stand with one pair" hands as well as his gut shot bluffs. Is the 3bet valid in a HU spot like this, or is there merit to flatting? If we do 3bet, what is the magic number we should be aiming for? If we do flat, do we hope to check/raise the river or do we lead out?
1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU Quote
09-04-2013 , 12:16 AM
Larger turn bet, reraise turn. You guys are playing deep enough that I think a flat is a bad play. You are OOP on the river, leading into him is just as strong as raising his turn bet and keeps the pot smaller, checking river with the plan to check raise misses a ton of value if he checks back a moderately strong hand. Goal should be to set it up where you can shove river and it not be a ridiculously large bet in relation to the pot with a hand this strong.

As played I'd reraise to $100-110.
1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU Quote
09-04-2013 , 12:26 AM
You have most of the aces, so it seems like a good spot to flat and c/r the river. He shouldn't really have any type of hand looking to just get a cheap showdown. He either has an airball/draw/twopair+, all of which he's going to bet the river when checked to.
1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU Quote
09-04-2013 , 12:35 AM
Raise bigger pre (we're deep and villain will call it off plus around $12 is standard at that level anyway -- I would make it like $15 or so). I concur with the bigger turn bet (multiway I like small bets, but this deep HU vs a station holding a monster just go to town).
1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU Quote
09-04-2013 , 12:50 AM
Raise $12-15 pre. As played 3b turn to $120 and shove any river.
1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU Quote
09-04-2013 , 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Foley
Monday night at Mandalay Bay. At this point table is five regs and 3 empty seats, i.e. 6 max.

Villain is in seat 1, hero is in seat 7. Villain is Brazilian and has been playing pretty aggro both preflop and postflop. His VPIP/PFR is something like 45/26. We have had a bit of dynamics going on. On our first hand I check/raised the flop with an OESD against his PFR and c-bet and took it down on the turn after firing a 1/2 psb. On another hand I raised in MP with JJ, he called OTB with TT and raised my c-bet when the flop came 9 high with two clubs. I called, it went check/check on turn Ks and check/check on river Ad and he seemed mildly annoyed as I raked in the pot. In another hand I made a PFR and fired two barrels after a Q high flop and he folded with a frown on his face.

I have been opening a lot with $7 PFRs to keep a somewhat higher SPR postflop. I was hoping that I would get 3bet with my big pairs after doing this for a while with the rest of my range.

In this hand hero starts with ~$320 and villain covers.

Folds to hero in HJ who finds A A. Hero raises to $7. CO folds, villain on BTN calls, blinds fold. Flop comes J 8 4. Hero bets $11, BTN calls with a look of slight anger in his eyes. Turn A. Hero bets $20, BTN raises to $40. Hero ???

On one hand, I liked a 3bet to shovel money into the middle and set up a larger river leadout. But seeing a 3bet allows a "frustrated" villain to shut down on both his "take a stand with one pair" hands as well as his gut shot bluffs. Is the 3bet valid in a HU spot like this, or is there merit to flatting? If we do 3bet, what is the magic number we should be aiming for? If we do flat, do we hope to check/raise the river or do we lead out?
Results:

Hero 3bets to $90. Villain looks confused for a moment, squints at the board, starts to nod his head, and folds.

Given the dynamics and his line, I'm still not sure if villain was trying to push me off a Jx hand with some kind of gutshot or if held something like KJ and decided after the 3bet that I turned AJ or better.

Does anyone have any good rules of thumb for knowing when an opponent can continue in a HU pot after we 3bet? When he raises me I start to think there's a decent chance that he has some big hands in his range like J8 for 2 pair or AQ/AT/A9 for TPGK/TPWK; maybe even a slight chance that he flopped a set and decided to raise the turn. It's a dry board, so I found it a little odd that he raises and can't call a fairly small 3bet.

Other factor that I see playing into this is that although we had raised postflop against each other in a few spots, this was the first time either of us had put in a 3bet. That might have given him enough info to put me on 2 pair +, and if it does that it makes me wonder if flatting was a better option.
1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU Quote
09-04-2013 , 02:24 PM
An alternative line, less than optimal for sure, but given history with villain is click it back on the turn to $60 to induce. Some villains will view this as a weak hand trying to over-rep and decide they can push you off and shove it here.
1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU Quote
09-04-2013 , 02:34 PM
He raised to see where he was at. Then he saw where he was at and folded nothing you can really do other than call and donk river or click it back and hope he spazzes out. Without a larger 3b you can't really get stacks in by river though.
1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU Quote
09-04-2013 , 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94
He raised to see where he was at. Then he saw where he was at and folded nothing you can really do other than call and donk river or click it back and hope he spazzes out. Without a larger 3b you can't really get stacks in by river though.
Yeah, at this point I think his range is probably strongly weighted toward KJ/QJ type hands, sometimes AT/A9, and with the occasional gutshot mixed in (although he probably calls a raise with a gutshot given his implied odds IME), trying to find out where I am by raising the turn. If I were to flat I don't think I can expect to check/raise the river since he can perceive my flat as a sign of decent strength and check back on the river pretty often. I was really hoping for a spazz with my 3bet, but no dice this time...overall I think a 3bet is probably still a good idea given everything I know about this situation. I think he's going to have big hands in his range at least a third of the time that will come over the top. And if he doesn't have those hands, I don't think I lose that much that I would make by calling and leading out the river since that line will look pretty strong to a JX/AX hand, too...don't think I can lead out too huge to get called by JX or ace rag.

I feel as though our dynamics at that table were partly based on the fact that we were two guys about the same age who wore the same type of clothes and both played somewhat aggressively (at least more so than the rest of the table). At the very least I think it allowed him to play back at me with a much wider range than he would against anyone else...so I don't know. Part of me wishes that I gave him a chance to make two pair on the river, but I think I can expect him to continue fairly wide against a 3bet so I can't really say I made a terrible play, either.
1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU Quote
09-05-2013 , 04:57 AM
I think a better plan would have been what 1/2 guys do most of the time, keep the SPR high with spec hands and try to get it low with big pocket pairs. Even if big pairs are still above the board ott, their strength is limited. QQ on a 478T board isn't amazing, if V is willing to get ai we're far from a lock. I would prefer to try to get ai otf with a hand like that.

And making it only $7 pre was why we only got about $60 this hand. There really isn't a need for balance at 1/2.
1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU Quote
09-05-2013 , 10:11 AM
Again, raise biggerr preflop so we wouldn't be so shallow with this monster, and to my opinion. I like a call turn and c/r river. You're the raiser and then lead the flop and turn. You represent jx or KK QQ. He could have a solid hand or could be making a move with an A on the turn trying to feel you out. I flat the call giving him the opportunity to analyze the hand and conclude that you're scared of the ace. Given the previous JJ 1010 hand. He might reflect back and remember he missed out On a bluff opportunity on thst hand, and try not to make the same mistake. If he has air, your raise will make him snap fold. If he has a monster, he's not going anywhere anyways. If he has a marginal hand, the river might give him a chance to improve making him still 2nd best most likely. Unfortunately, your in a spot with a huge hand and a small pot, trying to make the most of it.
1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU Quote
09-05-2013 , 10:15 AM
Just read the results after responding, guess I should have read everything first.
1/2, Extracting Value with Top Set HU Quote

      
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