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1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? 1/2 Did I overplay my AKo?

10-29-2017 , 10:43 AM
Given that AKo is the source of all troubles (well, almost) I've decided to do some due diligence on the forum before posting this, but I have not managed to find a situation very similar to mine, which I suspect is very common - maybe too common to post, within the first three search page.

Hero ($220)'s original table just broke and is on his fourth hand in this new table. Very naturally there were no reads available. The field is generally limpy-call-happy and Hero has opted to play TAG.

8 handed, $220 effective.

UTG+1 raises 10
MP calls
CO calls
Button(Hero) raises to 45 and folds to CO who calls

Flop ($110, 1.5SPR): 295hh
CO checks, Hero bets 60 to setup AI, CO calls after short think.

I am not sure whether I should have just checked behind given that flop does not generally help either of us.

Turn ($230): Jx
CO checks
Hero shoves the remaining 115 - The way the chips were thrown were a little bit forceful and CO immediately commented "Ah that means a call". CO thought for a minute then began to ask some questions such as "You got AJ?" but hero remained silent. CO called a minute later.

It looked to me that CO has a good pair, and in some cases AQ and AK which means that I'm never really ahead of his calling range and thus have decided to turn it into a bluff in hope to force him out - Was my thought process and action sensible?

Last edited by TheRiverMagic; 10-29-2017 at 10:56 AM.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 11:08 AM
Yeah, I think you did. I don't even mind the flop C-bet, but I probably just check turn and hopefully river to realize showdown value, or maybe bink. I don't stack myself here. Only hand that you're ahead of is AQ or some flush draw. That short I expect to get looked up all the time so you have little to no FE.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 12:14 PM
Your plan isn't terrible but don't do it all the time. Particularly against an unknown just check the flop half the time and then when you do bet check the turn half the time. You need to have a made hand here more often then not until you have a good read on villain.

Also against an EP raise and multiple callers just flat and see the flop occasionally. It is such an obvious squeeze situation that you should be a little less inclined to raise.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
Your plan isn't terrible but don't do it all the time. Particularly against an unknown just check the flop half the time and then when you do bet check the turn half the time. You need to have a made hand here more often then not until you have a good read on villain.

Also against an EP raise and multiple callers just flat and see the flop occasionally. It is such an obvious squeeze situation that you should be a little less inclined to raise.
Totally disagree on this and you got this completly backwards. AK holds such good equity versus almost anything but the nittiest of ranges, that with substational dead money in the pot we should be more inclined to 3 bet- not less.

A 10 or 12 open+ 2-3 calls is a _huge_incentive to 3 bet a hand like AK to attack the dead money in the pot. The obvious squeeze spot also makes it more likely that we can get action from wider ranges and worse hands that we dominates. This is the kind of spots where many villains really can find the spazz button- people hate when they aint able to see the flop for 10 bucks they already have put in the pot, then the price suddenly is 40 or 50.

Assuming the standard 100 BB stacks, i would 3 bet AK off every single time in spots like this with substational dead money in the pot and a string of callers with more or less capped weak ranges.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
Your plan isn't terrible but don't do it all the time. Particularly against an unknown just check the flop half the time and then when you do bet check the turn half the time. You need to have a made hand here more often then not until you have a good read on villain.

Also against an EP raise and multiple callers just flat and see the flop occasionally. It is such an obvious squeeze situation that you should be a little less inclined to raise.


come again? The more callers the more inclined you should be to 3b as that’s just more dead money.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 12:30 PM
I think with AKo my 3b is going to be larger than $45 after two overcalls, particularly with your stack size. I think I would have gone at least $55-60 here. Was the EP raiser a tight player? Unless he was super tight I'm not worried about getting 4b jammed pre here either.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 12:50 PM
When V calls the initial PF raise he will have a lot of PP’s and hands with 2 broadway cards in his range. When you 3b he will usually fold his 2 broadway card hands as he’s afraid they will be dominated by AK but he’ll continue with his PP’s as he’ll set mine even though he isn’t getting the proper odds. In this hand I would put V on mid PP’s like 77-JJ. If he had QQ-AA he would have 3b pre himself.

On this board and IP I prefer a delayed cbet. With 9 high on the flop, 40% of turns are going to be an overcard to the board that you can rep.

After the turn if V has 77, 88, or TT he’ll check as he’ll be afraid of the J. You can then bet the turn to fold those hands out. Of course, you have to balance your range by checking the flop back sometimes with strong hands. Since SPR is so low you can do this and still get all the money in in 2 streets. If V has 99 or JJ in this hand he’ll usually bet the turn and in that case you can just fold. Since V checked the turn I put him on 77, 88, TT. He’ll usually fold 77 and 88 to a bet and may call with TT so I’d bet an amount that I think would fold out his TT.

If I was planning to double barrel the flop and turn then with these stack sizes I would just shove the flop to put max pressure on him instead of making half pot bets. If you do this then he will be more inclined to call young the turn because of better odds.

Last edited by CWsports; 10-29-2017 at 01:01 PM.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRiverMagic
Given that AKo is the source of all troubles (well, almost) I've decided to do some due diligence on the forum before posting this, but I have not managed to find a situation very similar to mine, which I suspect is very common - maybe too common to post, within the first three search page.

Hero ($220)'s original table just broke and is on his fourth hand in this new table. Very naturally there were no reads available. The field is generally limpy-call-happy and Hero has opted to play TAG.

8 handed, $220 effective.

UTG+1 raises 10
MP calls
CO calls
Button(Hero) raises to 45 and folds to CO who calls

Flop ($110, 1.5SPR): 295hh
CO checks, Hero bets 60 to setup AI, CO calls after short think.
My thinking is tailored for a simple and effective strategy in order to accumulate chips. That’s it. I don’t claim perfection. But I believe I know how and I know why I can win a lot of money playing live game-situations. So, the "little" that I "know' about this game-situations I use it many time over and over. I actually have about 10 or so "plays" that I run them over and over and get chips for it. That's it.

Why not shoving OTF instead trying to setup trouble? If you intend to shove on the next card why give him the next card to look at before you put your stacks at risk? You got left $175 and pot is $110. If you bet $60 and plan to shove $115 OTT what's the difference if you just shove now and get it over?

The way you played to give him at least between 2,3,4 or 5 outs to draw on you and beat your AK. Try to figure them out. I really don't understand your thinking. Are you sure you're winning in this game or just pretend or trying to become a winning player?

Think about it hard

Last edited by GenghisKhan; 10-29-2017 at 12:59 PM.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisKhan
My thinking is tailored for a simple and effective strategy in order to accumulate chips. That’s it. I don’t claim perfection. But I believe I know how and I know why I can win a lot of money playing live game-situations. So, the "little" that I "know' about this game-situations I use it many time over and over. I actually have about 10 or so "plays" that I run them over and over and get chips for it. That's it.

Why not shoving OTF instead trying to setup trouble? If you intend to shove on the next card why give him the next card to look at before you put your stacks at risk? You got left $175 and pot is $110. If you bet $60 and plan to shove $115 OTT what's the difference if you just shove now and get it over?

The way you played to give him at least between 2,3,4 or 5 outs to draw on you and beat your AK. Try to figure them out. I really don't understand your thinking. Are you sure you're winning in this game or just pretend or trying to become a winning player?

Think about it hard
Don’t be an a**, we were all beginners at one point in time. Every marathon begins with a single step.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CWsports
Don’t be an a**, we were all beginners at one point in time. Every marathon begins with a single step.
I'm not. I'm just trying to help you. Can you read between the lines that I try to help?

Again, If you intend to shove the turn, why give villain and opportunity to draw out for even 2 outs? If you would had a made hand with showdown value, I would understand that you want to preserve its value. You don't have much value right now but what you have instead is "equity-when-called" plus "folding-equity". Probably only two overs and are behind to even the bottom pair. If you shove now instead of shoving on the next card, what the difference if you intend to play for stacks the way you describe it.

I'm not saying is the best play but as long as you made up your mind to shove the river according to your so called little "set-up AI", why not shove now?

..., fuhgeddaboudit ..., man, .. ha ha .., and don't you call this papa an a** ...because my ass it was flat when I looked the last time in the mirror from so much sitting at poker tables all over LA and Vegas for all my life. I am a piece of furniture at the Commerce, the Bike and all Vegas casinos. OK?

Last edited by GenghisKhan; 10-29-2017 at 02:32 PM.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 02:32 PM
I don't think we can delay cbet because we shouldn't have any J in our perceived range. The only reason not to cbet would be if we think we have zero fold equity.
I think OP played it fine.....except for the fact you had no reads on your opponents.

Last edited by Vagine; 10-29-2017 at 02:38 PM.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 02:48 PM
What kind of range do you give an unknown that raised in the UTG+1 and calls a 3 bet pf? How is AKo doing against that range on this flop?

Answer those questions and you'll be able to answer whether this was played well or not. I'll just note that IMO the average 1/2 player is not going to fold TP or an OP on the flop to anyone.

TBH at 1/2, they shouldn't be.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 04:36 PM
With the shorter stack sizes, I would opt for a check on the flop and give yourself a chance to realize your hand's equity. I also don't think you can expect much worse to fold on that board.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisKhan
I'm not. I'm just trying to help you. Can you read between the lines that I try to help?

Again, If you intend to shove the turn, why give villain and opportunity to draw out for even 2 outs? If you would had a made hand with showdown value, I would understand that you want to preserve its value. You don't have much value right now but what you have instead is "equity-when-called" plus "folding-equity". Probably only two overs and are behind to even the bottom pair. If you shove now instead of shoving on the next card, what the difference if you intend to play for stacks the way you describe it.

I'm not saying is the best play but as long as you made up your mind to shove the river according to your so called little "set-up AI", why not shove now?

..., fuhgeddaboudit ..., man, .. ha ha .., and don't you call this papa an a** ...because my ass it was flat when I looked the last time in the mirror from so much sitting at poker tables all over LA and Vegas for all my life. I am a piece of furniture at the Commerce, the Bike and all Vegas casinos. OK?
How are you helping me out? I didn’t post this hand, lol
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 05:14 PM
I certainly didn't expect that many replies and thank you all for the valuable input. (given that my posts usually only attract a couple of replies!)

There are some variety in the feedback. Some suggested checking flop and some find my flop bet alright. But I think the bottom line is that I should have checked turn even though I'm very likely to be beat.

I'm a player that prefers making easy decisions and I'm not too fond of making huge overbet like some replies suggested. I wonder if it would have been better if I made the preflop raise larger (55-60 as HawkesDave mentioned seems to be a range) and simply ship on flop with just-over-a-pot-size bet?
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 05:17 PM
As for the results - CO had 77 and river was a blank card.
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote
10-29-2017 , 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
What kind of range do you give an unknown that raised in the UTG+1 and calls a 3 bet pf? How is AKo doing against that range on this flop?

Answer those questions and you'll be able to answer whether this was played well or not. I'll just note that IMO the average 1/2 player is not going to fold TP or an OP on the flop to anyone.

TBH at 1/2, they shouldn't be.
V is not the PFR in this hand.......although both should have similar ranges calling a 3b OOP
1/2 Did I overplay my AKo? Quote

      
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