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Old 07-11-2018, 02:12 PM   #1
SaintTino
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1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

Villain is an older lady and somewhat of a reg fish.

There's another player in the hand, but he's short (started the hand with about $150)

We've got around $800 and Villain covers.

Short stack player limps in MP and we open QT to $15 from LoJack. Villain calls from the BB and Shorty calls as well.

Flop: T78

Villain leads out $35, Shorty flats and we raise to $150. Villain calls and shorty puts in the rest of his money.

Turn is 3 and Villain quickly leads out $150. We call.

River is K and Villain quickly bets $200.

So what the hell is this about? Should we just be shoving the turn? what's our play on the river?
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:35 PM   #2
browni3141
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

Why are you raising the flop?
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:40 PM   #3
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

River play is trivial. Of course you fold. How you got there is more interesting...

I think I flat the flop and then maybe raise the turn (and if I did, likely fold to V's 3 bet as she is repping at a minimum 87 but more likely 88 or 77). I may just flat turn again given we have a gazillion outs.

So basically, your flop raise was a massive overplay and caused you to lose more $ because when the BD flush draw came, you felt compelled to call that too.
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:52 PM   #4
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
Why are you raising the flop?
Generally, when a fish donk bets, they aren't very strong...it's usually a medium pair or drawing hand. I was wanting to iso the short stack all in while also charging Villain to draw with all of her 9x hands, and I'm usually doing this with the majority of my range.
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:05 PM   #5
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

Jamie Gold
Jerry Yang
Darvin Moon

Though.
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:35 PM   #6
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

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River play is trivial. Of course you fold. How you got there is more interesting...

I think I flat the flop and then maybe raise the turn (and if I did, likely fold to V's 3 bet as she is repping at a minimum 87 but more likely 88 or 77). I may just flat turn again given we have a gazillion outs.

So basically, your flop raise was a massive overplay and caused you to lose more $ because when the BD flush draw came, you felt compelled to call that too.
I do agree that the flop raise may have been an overplay and it's probably best to just flat in position against the fish
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:40 PM   #7
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

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Why you say Villain's a fish when she's got $800 stack in a 1-2 game. I don't know about that, .., man..., To grow from $200 (100bb) to 400bb ($800) she must be doing something right.

Very funny to read so many posts here where the competition is described as being; fish, droollers, maniacs, incompetents, tourists in vacation, clueless ... etc,.., only the Hero is portrayed as being TAG, solid, having solid hands at the showdown. Very very funny. Not that I care much because I know that's not the case but is very funny just to read the posts and see what's gonna be the end result of the entire hand.

Anyway, fold now and get to the next hand.
First of all, I agree that a lot of posters on here use the words fish and TAG in a very loose context and it seems as though they don't quite understand what those titles truly entail. I am not one of those posters.

Just because someone builds a big stack in a cash game, does NOT mean they are a good player. I assure you this woman was a classic fish. Limp/ calling a bunch, being totally oblivious to positional poker, having zero understanding of hand ranges or equity calculations, making stupid bluffs in terrible spots, being unable to fold top pair in situations where she is clearly crushed, etc.

But aside from that...this was not a 200 max game, so she could have bought in for more than that. Honestly, I'm not sure what she was in for because by the time I got to the table she already had 1000+. Something else interesting to note: She ended up leaving with nothing.
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:45 PM   #8
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

Raising flop when we are 400bb eff to start the hand is just asking to be put in a super gross spot. River seems like an easy fold AP expecting to sometimes see a weirdly played worse hand but not really much other choice IMO.
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:58 PM   #9
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

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Originally Posted by SaintTino View Post
First of all, I agree that a lot of posters on here use the words fish and TAG in a very loose context and it seems as though they don't quite understand what those titles truly entail. I am not one of those posters.

Just because someone builds a big stack in a cash game, does NOT mean they are a good player. I assure you this woman was a classic fish. Limp/ calling a bunch, being totally oblivious to positional poker, having zero understanding of hand ranges or equity calculations, making stupid bluffs in terrible spots, being unable to fold top pair in situations where she is clearly crushed, etc.

But aside from that...this was not a 200 max game, so she could have bought in for more than that. Honestly, I'm not sure what she was in for because by the time I got to the table she already had 1000+. Something else interesting to note: She ended up leaving with nothing.
anyone else we know fall into this ????OP
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:05 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

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anyone else we know fall into this ????OP
yeah yeah, take your digs. I know I shouldn't be in this situation but the level of snark on twoplustwo still amazes me in 2018. Obviously I posted this because I felt I made several mistakes throughout the hand and I'm wanting to clean that up. So offer something reasonably helpful or STFU. Thanks
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:20 PM   #11
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

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yeah yeah, take your digs. I know I shouldn't be in this situation but the level of snark on twoplustwo still amazes me in 2018. Obviously I posted this because I felt I made several mistakes throughout the hand and I'm wanting to clean that up. So offer something reasonably helpful or STFU. Thanks
you tossed it underhand right down the middle of the plate
couldn't resist swinging at it
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:23 PM   #12
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

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you tossed it underhand right down the middle of the plate
couldn't resist swinging at it
LOL...next time I'll try to throw a curve ball
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:32 PM   #13
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

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Originally Posted by SaintTino View Post
Generally, when a fish donk bets, they aren't very strong...it's usually a medium pair or drawing hand. I was wanting to iso the short stack all in while also charging Villain to draw with all of her 9x hands, and I'm usually doing this with the majority of my range.
What is your range that you’re raising the donk the majority of the time when the person donking is deep as f*ck and you hold top pair third kicker? Your backdoor outs are the reason you call behind, not bloat a dry pot with one pair.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:04 AM   #14
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

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What is your range that you’re raising the donk the majority of the time when the person donking is deep as f*ck and you hold top pair third kicker? Your backdoor outs are the reason you call behind, not bloat a dry pot with one pair.
My range here can be anything from an overpair to a set to the nut straight, and some air (most likely in the form of broadway cards) honestly.

I usually put pressure on donk bets with nearly 100% of my range, because donk bets are usually very medium strength "blocker bets".

But in this particular scenario, I'm thinking I should have flatted.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:49 PM   #15
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

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My range here can be anything from an overpair to a set to the nut straight, and some air (most likely in the form of broadway cards) honestly.

I usually put pressure on donk bets with nearly 100% of my range, because donk bets are usually very medium strength "blocker bets".

But in this particular scenario, I'm thinking I should have flatted.
Player dependent. Usually, yes. But some guys like to lead into the raiser with strong made hands. Also, your range is probably wider than you think. Villains perception of you here is important as well.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:27 PM   #16
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

Yikes, I'm never raising on the flop here. I would proceed with caution if I have just top pair and backdoor draws by just calling. Turn call is fine I guess, although if you called on the flop the turn bet would've likely have been smaller. Easy fold on the river. Guessing villain had KdTd or something. You're only beating JT and T9 here, and she doesn't seem worried about the river K.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:30 PM   #17
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

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Yikes, I'm never raising on the flop here. I would proceed with caution if I have just top pair and backdoor draws by just calling. Turn call is fine I guess, although if you called on the flop the turn bet would've likely have been smaller. Easy fold on the river. Guessing villain had KdTd or something. You're only beating JT and T9 here, and she doesn't seem worried about the river K.
The more I look at it, the more villains lead range just crushes hero. All set scare in play, TT, 77,88. Two pairs 78 and T8. J9 is possible too. I’d call the flop lead but have to be suspicious of a turn lead. It’d be very strong.
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:50 AM   #18
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintTino View Post
Generally, when a fish donk bets, they aren't very strong...it's usually a medium pair or drawing hand. I was wanting to iso the short stack all in while also charging Villain to draw with all of her 9x hands, and I'm usually doing this with the majority of my range.
Wrt the underlined, V is donking ~3/4 pot. In my experience, the weaker range donks are usually sized small, < 1/2 PSB.

Fold as played. Call flop with TP3K; call turn with additional equity.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:10 AM   #19
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Re: 1/2 Deep- Fish takes weird line

those are some pretty big bets from a fish.
with only this hand sample as a guage shes repping a pretty strong range.
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