Hey guys!

Limp-happy tight passive table avg stack is $200 or so

Hero/BTN(400) Young 20s white, tightest player at the table. has not shown down any hands but has successfully Cbet bluffed and Dbl-Barreled earlier in night. Been quiet recently.

7 limps and hero goes 20 with QJ

4 callers

FLOP(109) A62

Checks to hero who....

I think the raise pre is high. Why bloat the pot with just queen-high? 10-12 would done the same imo.

Against 4 callers I'm probably just checking behind. Against two opponents, I might c-bet 60ish, but I'm a bit of a nit so...

It's so hard to bluff four players out but with your image and perceived range I'm firing on this flop. I'd bet between $80-$100.

I was attempting to take down the dead money.

I check here, a lot of players will limp call with Ax in this situation and with so many players in the pot your bet is getting called here so often that it becomes slightly unprofitable. As played, if the turn is a I would decide to just c/c since many players are not capable of folding Ax in this spot and you have the risk of getting raised off your draw in case V was slow playing a set or 2 pair. Any other card here I'm c/f obviously.

Which was, how much? $14?

So you are going to risk $20 to win $14 ... and now you want to add gasoline to the fire?

Why? We don't have to play every hand. We don't have to win every hand.

Yeah, now the pot is nice and it would be great to take it down.

Average stack is $200 ... People have put in $20. Now, you are going to fire, say, $70 and if someone calls they will have put in approximately 45 percent of their stack ... unless we have a read that these donkeys will fold to a turn bet, we really are lighting money on fire here.

Don't get me wrong: There are players who will call a large pot bet and then fold with what seems like a ridiculous stack behind on the turn.

There's also the possibility that you are just getting set up here because people EXPECT the preflop raiser to C-bet the A high board.

I check. And I probably just limp behind OTB in the future with a hand like this than has stackability postflop if we flop big.

This reminds me of the story of the guy who was up $493 in a $2/$5 game, was OTB and wanted to leave up $500, so he went all-in OTB after it was folded to him so he could pick up the $7. Problem was, one of the blinds had AA. Oops.

I'm checking back the flop. Somebody super likely have an ace in their limp calling range and won't fold that. If the turn brings a spade or pair I'm keen to peel the river.

This

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I think sizing preflop is slightly excessive. Don't hate raising button though. 15 might be better.

In this spot, while it is likely someone has an ace, I still think a small c-bet (40-50) might be + ev. If we bet 40, it only has to work about 30% of the time to break even, and that does not include the times we pick up equity when backdoor draws come into play.

Lol that a $40 bet into a $100+ pot will fold out 4 players even 10% of the time.

QJ is a great hand multi-way. Dont try to take it down since it won't happen often even with a big raise (unless you put like 25 and even then... you'll have 1-2 caller more than 50% of the time...)

If the first caller call, you will almost always have every player call it.
Best case scenario, you have 2 callers with a marginal hand.

I would call preflop.
On the flop, on average 1 or 2 player will have an Ace or something that he won't give up on flop so check fold till river.
If a spade come out you can check call. I wouldn't even bet it since nobody fold an ace or a pair on the turn...

I really don't mind the $20 button raise with a tight image, and if that raise is going to take it down or get it heads up in position most of the time. A limp at a passive table with a decent multiway hand is fine too, it really depends.

But the plan didn't work, you got four callers. A cbet is spew. Take the free card.

Raising to 10-12 bloats the pot as well and it makes it more likely that all the limpers call. Definitely does not do the same.

a $20 dollar bet got 4 callers. i can't believe that people are arguing for a smaller raise. you should either limp or raise more. you are trying to raise an amount that will narrow the field to heads up most of the time. I think squeezing here is fine. if $20 dollars would generally get it hu then it's a fine size. but if the game is crazy than go ahead and raise 25 or 30 get one caller and then c-bet half pot and take it down most of the time.

once we have 4 callers i just check behind and try to back door some equity.

Trust me that you WILL get a few limpers to fold, even to a 3x raise. I see it all the time. "Hooray dead money!" lol.

To me, there's a difference between "building a pot" and "bloating a pot".

The difference is the pot otf would only be ~50 instead of 100+, so we can get away with c-betting only maybe $30-35 (should we choose to). C-betting the flop as played leads to commitment issues on the turn. It's not the bet itself but the effect it has on future streets which makes it problematic for me.

Don't know where your games are but when a $20 raise gets 4 callers i would be shocked if a 10-12 raise at the same table would get more than 1 of the limpers to fold.

Just limp pre.

As played, check the flop.

Check and take free card

I don't think the raise is high if his goal was to isolate 1-2 of the limpers. $10 + 1 BB per limper is pretty standard at $1/2. If anything, he should have gone higher to $25 preflop. I think you can go either way, limping or raising, but the raise has to be bigger. If he goes to $25-30 logically there would be less callers and the pot may only be $50-75 on the flop which is much more manageable than $100.

As played, check and take the free card.

That's my point: Those 4 guys are going to limp/call most raises to "chase the ace" or setmine or whatever it is bad players hope to hit the lottery with. The other limpers are going to fold their trash to ANY aggression.

Betting enough to get HU is prohibitively expensive, and imo shouldn't even be our goal here pre. We're playing sooted 'nectors, which require good implied odds to play profitably. Playing this hand for just TPGK is putting ourselves into RIO land.

I'm surprised to see the number if posters advocating smaller or no raise PF.

QJs ("just queen-high") is likely to be ahead of all limpers' holdings, and being on the button increases our equity out of this world.

You do NOT make money in poker by "calling and trying to hit a hand" - you make money by driving the action and forcing your opponents to either abandon their equity or commit their chips when they're at a disadvantage.

I make it $25 here PF almost every time, at least until I've seen one or more of the limpers limp/3-bet PF more than once.

Most of the time I'll be taking down the pot PF (and taking down $14 uncontested and rake-free/tip-free is huge in a $1-2 game), or I'll see the flop - still in position - HU or 3-way with a hand, that has a ton of ways of improving on the turn if one barrel doesn't do the job.

What you do here is highly dependent on the metagame. How are your opponents? Fit 'r Fold? Is anyone here sticky? Do you have them just a bit scared of you? When you say you're the tightest player at the table, are they worried about you, or have you melted into the background and they don't notice you at all? If you have a good reason to believe they noticed, then prepare to steal it. If not, take the freebie.

OK, you banged it and got four callers. Given the dry nature of the flop, the chance to improve the backdoor, the limpy, tight, weak opposition, I would be inclined to take a chance and fire that barrel. I'd go $50 here. If they're really fit 'r fold, and that weak-passive you'll drop 'em and scoop. No sense in betting higher: if they'll call for $50, they'll call for more. Weak, passive, limpy players aren't thinking about pot odds, and a bet is a bet regardless of how big or small it is. To them, "equity" has something to do with real estate. Their thinking is way, way way below that of the 2+2 forum-er. If the c-bet gets called, and the turn doesn't help, it need not cost you any more since either they'll check again, and you check behind, or one of the yutzes will reveal he has a hand, and you drop, having lost the minimum.

No sense in being afraid to lead into four limpers who check the flop. These kinds of players aren't likely to do any check-raising, and their checks mean "I ain't got nuttin'; take my money". If they knew what they were doing, they wouldn't be weak-tight, fit 'r fold, limpy players would they?

If anyone gets sticky here, file that away for future reference.

If this was the goal you should be making this $20 raise with rags. Don't "waste" a hand that plays well HU or MW. QJs will win straight over straight and flush over flush and even with a pair while kicker plays a lot. If you want to steal the limps, raise to $20 with T4o.

Also, check behind AP. You have some backdoor equity, take the free card.