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1/2 C-Bet Ragged Flop, Hit Top Pair on Turn 1/2 C-Bet Ragged Flop, Hit Top Pair on Turn

02-11-2014 , 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pay4Myschool
Please sit at my table
Lol i dont think ive ever agreed with one thing he's ever suggested
1/2 C-Bet Ragged Flop, Hit Top Pair on Turn Quote
02-12-2014 , 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel Foley
Good discussion so far. Let's talk a little more about the plan for river. Rather than present a hypothetical I'll just give partial results:

Turn: 2 4 7 T. Hero bets $25, villain quickly calls. $105 in pot.

River 2 4 7 T 2. Hero ???

Choose a line (i.e. b/f, x/c, x/f, x/evaluate, etc). If you decide to x/evaluate, discuss both the bet sizing and information you would use to decide between a call and fold.
Example 1 Final Results:

I decide to check/evaluate. In game I felt concerned about how I was going to get three streets of value against a conservative looking player with top pair weak kicker. Wasn't sure if I could get a call from a weaker hand the majority of the time OTR; I realize the prime targets for my bet are 99 and 88, but the speed of his call on the turn made me worried about overpairs.

Villain quickly bets $55 and appears very comfortable. I think for a little bit and end up folding.

On the surface, I know this appears weak. In my defense, however, I'll throw in a hand I later saw with this villain:

Hero opens J J to $12 in MP. Villain calls in HJ. BTN calls. Young Asian player makes it $45 from BB. Hero folds. Villain calls.

Flop Q65hh. Young Asian leads for $55, villain shoves for $90 more, young Asian calls. Young Asian shows QQ, villain shows AA.

So this seemed like the kind of guy who got off on calling with big hands on early streets and then coming over the top after the initial action. Doesn't mean that I couldn't have folded the best hand, but I really do think JJ+ was within his range when he bets $55 on the river.

All in all, I think my standard play should be to b/f $45 on the river in this situation to get value from 7x/88/99 and make it less likely that I can get confused and fold the best hand. In this particular situation I think it's a bit closer between b/f and x/eval.
1/2 C-Bet Ragged Flop, Hit Top Pair on Turn Quote
02-12-2014 , 04:47 PM
Turn is prob the most std b/f spot ever.

River is close...he doesn't have a ton of draws in his range on the flop so not sure what he is going to bluff with. Think he can have a lot of 55, 66, 88, 99 that won't call a ton. Maybe 40-45 on river. Obv snap folding if jams.
1/2 C-Bet Ragged Flop, Hit Top Pair on Turn Quote
02-12-2014 , 04:50 PM
My problem w c/f vs unknown is this guy might think he's value betting 88 or 99 here. Look at what your range looks like, mostly it's pretty weak w your small turn bet then river check.
1/2 C-Bet Ragged Flop, Hit Top Pair on Turn Quote
02-13-2014 , 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman
But I'd definitely go for the small bet/fold for value
I concur, especially since I can't imagine an unknown villain ever raising the river with a worse hand.



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1/2 C-Bet Ragged Flop, Hit Top Pair on Turn Quote
02-13-2014 , 09:42 PM
This is the problem with non crushing llsnl players. Would you double barrel bluff here? Why when you hit top pair which is likey good are you not betting for value, money, cash. This is one of the simple ways to make money, bet when you have it.

If you are putting money in with bluffs and checking this pair on the turn you will not make money.
1/2 C-Bet Ragged Flop, Hit Top Pair on Turn Quote
02-18-2014 , 05:48 PM
Second Example

Sunday afternoon at Aria. 1/3 game. A few loose players, a couple decent players.

Villain in this hand is a white guy in his late twenties wearing a collared shirt. His VPIP/PFR is roughly 12/5 over 50 hands. Has played relatively aggressively postflop in the few hands I have seen him play. Starts with $350.

Hero is a white guy in his late twenties wearing a track jacket. My VPIP/PFR is about 23/16 over 50 hands. I've bet a few hands aggressively for value and pulled off a float against another player that had him talking to himself (I didn't show, but I raised him to 3.5x on the turn on a board of 5 7 8 9 when I held K Q; he said he had a big hand and mucked). I start the hand with $400.

On to the hand:

Villain limps in early position. Hero raises A Q to $13 in HJ. Folds around to villain who calls. $25 in pot after drop.

Flop 2 3 5. Villain checks, hero bets $17, villain calls. $59 in pot.

Thinking a c-bet is pretty standard here. If he limp/calls 77-TT then I have ten outs; of course it's a tough spot if he has 66/65 and a 4 hits on the turn. I sometimes have the best hand when he limp/calls with KQ/KJ/AJ, and can charge him for heart draws when he holds something like A 9, etc.

Turn Q. Villain checks. Hero ???

Maybe it isn't such a concern with this player type, but let's say hypothetically against a trickier/more aggressive opponent should I check behind here to avoid having to fold the best hand when I get check/raised? If I bet $35 and he makes it $125 I get put into a gross spot if he actually has a range that's polarized between sets/flopped straights and flush draws/straight draws/combo draws. Spot can feel especially gross if I've only seen him play a few hands and think he might have a polarized range but don't really know it for sure.

One other benefit to a check behind against an aggressive player is that I think it makes it harder for Vs to confidently bluff on scary rivers since they can't be entirely sure that hero didn't check behind with a flush draw/straight draw of his own on the turn.
1/2 C-Bet Ragged Flop, Hit Top Pair on Turn Quote
02-18-2014 , 05:55 PM
I think it's a bet regardless of your opponent. If it's a straight forward fit/fold opponent, it's a bet/fold for value. Against a tricky/aggressive opponent, it might be a bet/call for value.

On a flop like that, a good chunk of villain's calling range is draws. With A-high, I would be double barreling pretty much every turn card to charge draws/value bet draws, and as a bluff against middling made hands like 5x, 66-99.
1/2 C-Bet Ragged Flop, Hit Top Pair on Turn Quote
02-18-2014 , 06:15 PM
Check back flop since that board smacks a nit's range pretty hard(22-99). As played b/f is ok if you think he calls again with 44/66-99, otherwise check back and get value from 66-99 on the river.
1/2 C-Bet Ragged Flop, Hit Top Pair on Turn Quote

      
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