I know QJ is a hand to raise with but not call with (usually). I broke my rule here and given my reads, was probably more egregious than usual. Been at the table for about 15 minutes. V1 hasn't raised a pot yet. V2 has been pretty quiet but I've played with him twice before and he is capable of getting involved in pots.

Effective stacks $200
V1 has a stack of $600 and has been tight (red flag)
V2 has a stack of $300 and has been tightish (red flag)

Hero dealt QJ

UTG (V1) opens for $15
CO (V2) calls $15
Hero (Button) calls $15
SB folds
BB folds

Pot: $45

Flop: 6 Q 2

V1 bets $15
V2 calls $15
Hero raises to $60
V1 folds
V2 re-raises AI to $185
Hero?

What was your purpose in raising on the flop?

raising the flop is bad with no dynamic.

As played I think raising flop is fine as V1's weak ass bet on this board indicates he whiffed this flop, and V2 could easily be on a float or a draw. Gotta fold to the Jam. Draws are discounted somewhat since it's a back raise. If anything it feels like he's put you on a draw and is jamming for value with sets or AQ/KQ.

To win the pot without seeing another card or make draws pay to see the turn. V1 betting 1/3 PSB and V2 calling leads me to believe at least one of them is probably on a flush draw. I've got a vulnerable hand and thought by raising I could employ some FE and win it here.

If I just called - what would you do on a ...

1) Turn brick if checked to
2) Turn brick if 1/2 PSB to
3) Turn spade if checked to
4) Turn spade if 1/2 PSB to

This didn't seem like an ideal time to just call. Either raise or fold. And if folding was the option then I shouldn't have even been in the hand in the first place, which goes back to the rule I broke so maybe that is the answer.

So offering a FD 3:1 direct odds to see a card is going to get FE? I'm calling that all day if I have an Ace in my hand with the FD. You didn't nearly bet enough to close out the hand against 2 villains.

One mistake lots of LLSNL players make is getting married to TP. I'm not real excited about have TPMK on the flop. I'm not going to put a lot of money in the pot because it is hard for any even marginally good player to put in a lot of money with worse. If you want to fold out hands, you need to make a PSB (105). And yeah, you're probably pot committed on a blank turn if called. Which is why I don't want to raise.

This.

When we call with QJs, we aren't looking to play for big money with one pair. We are playing the hand with the belief that a pair has some value, but a lot of our equity preflop is with the other hands we can make.

Here we essentially have a bluff catcher in many ways. When we raise, we don't fold out anything we beat, and when called we will either a.) be behind, or b.) be up against a hand with great equity against our fairly marginal holding.

Our villain here is allowing us to keep the pot small, so I would let them.

+this I am certainly just flatting this flop, folding to a PSB on turn any turn

Maybe I'm confusing the math here but if V is getting ~3:1 direct odds but he is less than 4:1 to hit on the turn how is that giving him the odds to call? It might not be a huge mistake for a FD to call but over the long-term that would be a -EV play wouldn't it? At that point I am more or less turning my hand into a bluff I suppose with some showdown value.

It just seems like calling would leave me in no-man's land. The pot would be at $90 at that point. Are you folding if bet into and what are you doing if checked to?

Ugh.

I think having been at the table for a mere 15 minutes makes this a fold preflop.

There are times when I will incorporate QJs into my 3b range. In multiway pots, QJs is not the worst hand to flat to button with either. So, one could argue that you could play this hand either way. But, due the fact that we have only been at the table for 15 minutes and only have 100bbs means that neither option is very good for us.

OP your logic is flawed on many levels.

First of all, 15 minutes is nowhere near enough time to tell who's playing tight or loose or solid or spewy or anything because it literally translates into maybe 5-8 hands. So you're seeing red-flags without any real reason other than position. Furthermore, despite telling yourself that you're seeing the red flags you opt to call. I just don't see the logic here. It's almost like "oh ****, I'm not in very good shape here.. ok, I call anyway, let's see what happens."

Secondly, our raise on the flop has no good reason behind it. We've flopped a pretty good hand for our holding. It's not the nuts, obviously, however it's not the worst flop for our hand either. That being said, we could be in one of many different spots here.

Let's examine our possibilities:

1. We could be in GREAT shape; we have the best hand and are up against two players who are both drawing dead or very thin (QJ vs. 1010 & 1010 or AK & 77-1010 or AK & J9/J10).

2. We could be in GOOD/OK shape; we have the best hand but are up against hands that have some equity against us (QJ vs. AK & J9/J10 or XsXs & J9/J10).

3. We could be in QUESTIONABLE shape; we may or may not have the best hand and are up against hands that are either ahead of us now or have a fair amount of equity ahead of us (QJ vs. KQ+ & XsXs).

4. We are in BAD shape; we have top pair, but are up against hands that either have us crushed or have a ton of equity against us (QJ vs KK & AKss).

5. We are in TERRIBLE shape; we have top pair and are drawing dead or near dead (QJ vs QQ & AA).

Obviously, it would be like lightning striking in a bottle that any of those examples are exactly where we stand. But, can you see how raising literally accomplishes nothing? The times we have the best hand, we're bloating the pot when we should be looking to get to showdown. The times we're behind we're playing Santa Claus.

I mean, deep and with reads we can raise in this kind of spot IF we expect that flush draws or worse Jacks will peel. But do we know our villains, what they're playing OR how they will react with those hands after being in the game for 15 minutes? I'm pretty sure you don't have to be a genius to answer that question.

Lastly, you are not correctly applying Fold Equity to your benefit. Yes, we use fold equity combined with our direct equity to give ourselves a better expected value. However, when we think we are ahead or favored to win, should we be employing Fold Equity to win the hand? On the contrary, if we think that we are ahead shouldn't we want people to stay in and try to catch up (at incorrect odds, ofcourse)?

No. calling does NOT leave you in no-man's land. Calling leaves you last to act in position for the next street of action.

Come the turn, your villains will define their hand by their turn action and since you are in position you will be able to capitalize on the extra information you get by their turn action...

I feel that sometimes we forget just exactly what position is and how we should utilize position.

In this case, calling the flop bet is fine, 70% of the time the turn will brick out (no spade, no ace or king) and we can then reevaluate our hand based on the turn action.

One of the mistakes I often see in LLSNL is that players are so amped up to "win" the hand that they forget about playing +EV poker. +EV poker isn't just about "winning"-- it's about making the best +EV decision. Many times, that will entail simply just calling and reevaluating the next street ESPECIALLY when we are in position

(depending on SPR) I also like flatting flops vs potential flush draws because come turn, flush draws lose 1/2 their equity. This gives us more fold equity on turn while simultaneously making it easier to force our villains to make mathematically INCORRECT calls for their draws with just one card to come

Ugh. Thanks guys. Kind of FPS butchered this hand. Sometimes I feel like I am improving as a player and then I'll go ahead and make a decision like this where I'm not entirely sure why I'm doing what I'm doing. Looking back, I think even though V1 bet light, the fact that V2 just flatted should give me cause for concern with a decent but not great hand. Flatting + reevaluating seems much better in hindsight.

Lets say for sake of argument I had a set of 66s here. Would you bump it up to $60-$75 in this situation? I've heard you want to play sets fast and I know beginners like myself have a hard time throwing overpairs away so this seems like an ideal scenario to try to get stacks in.

grunch: fold

i think your call in position is ok. i think your flop bet is fine too. a check-raise is often a flush draw here but could also be a guy with a better Q, a set, or an overpair getting fancy.

i thought villain might do this with a flush draw i'd probably stick it in. if my only read is "tight" than i'd let it go. not a good price. b/f is the "default line" in low stakes and i think i'd probably use it here.

Dont beat yourself up too much OP: i think you show strength and believe in yourself by posting lots of strategy threads lately, and put your head out there- ready to get flamed by the forum. Not everyone dares to do that. Keep it up, even if you feel like you take two steps ahead, and then one back.

Just have two things to add that popped up in my mind.

Remember good old Dan Harringtons words here: "Small hand, small pot- big hand, big pot". In spots like this i feel like Harringtions words is a solid guideline to have in the back of your head.

In this hand you have a top pair with an good kicker, but it is an vulnerable hand- and you really DONT want to play a big pot here, and yet still you are the one ballooning up the pot with the flop raise.

And yes: if i had a set of 666 here i would raise the flop and hope to get fat value from strong Q hands like KQ or even better AQ- and getting value from flushdraws that pay for their draws regardless of the price you give them.

Fastplaying big hands is so +EV at live low stakes games because you exploit one of the most common leaks your opponents struggle with: having a hard time folding their hand and knowing when their beat.

+1

First and foremost, gogogo OP for posting.

One thing that I really used to struggle with when I first started playing was the overplaying of medium strength hands (Top Pairs/Small Overpairs). Our natural tendency is to "protect" those hands; if we rarely make strong hands hands like top pair, it's only natural for us to want to protect the ones that we do and to discourage people from drawing out on us, or at least to charge them for trying to do so. This is in some ways correct, however the way that people execute it could not be more incorrect. Nobody wants to lose or be drawn out on, so it IS correct to charge people for trying to beat us. But, why do we have to go berserk trying to do so? We don't.

The fact is that the majority of people are constantly sweating to win the pot and are scared to death of having their strong hands cracked. How often do we see our villains put in huge raises with top pair and then pat themselves on the back for winning the pot saying something like "Can't let you draw to that flush"? Ever play with the guy who always goes all in with AA? To them, their play is absolutely perfect. They are constantly winning with their big hands. I mean, how can you not be playing perfectly by getting all-in every time you have the nuts? Well, the thing that they don't see is just how much value they are missing out on by putting in these huge raises and going all in.

First and foremost, straight draws and flush draws just aren't there nearly as often as people worry about (MUBsy much?). Secondly, why should we be chasing them out? Call me crazy, but I want people to draw against me (at incorrect odds, of course). Everyone's sitting around trying to make people fold to them, when really they should be trying to make people call (at incorrect odds, of course). Lastly, and most certainly not the least, when we put in big raises with medium strength hands we are risking two things: A) Losing potential value from worse hands that would have called on later streets had we not raised and B) Drawing further action from hands that have us crushed.

Just as I said in my previous post, raising with hands like this can not possibly accomplish anything positive (with ofcourse the rare exception when we absolutely know that our drooling villains will continue to give us action with worse hands).

I see this day in and day out. Preflop raise, a few calls, cbet and boom big ass raise with top pair. "Well, I didn't want so and so behind me to draw to the flush."

....nevermind that he had the same top pair worse kicker and would have paid you double what you raised if you just didn't blow him out of the pot.

There's just no need for it.

Rarely is it or should it be our goal to "win the pot". Rather, our goal should be to make the most +EV decision. Well, sometimes that's going to require us venturing into "no man's land" as OP so eloquently put it. We all want to flop the nuts and have our villains betting and raising for us. Well, that only happens on imaginationpoker.com. The vast majority of hands that we play we are going to have low to medium strength hands and will be in tough situations, having to make tough decisions to figure out which action we should take to yield the best result.

"THAT'S poker".

dgiharris for mod!

Really good thread. +1 to all posters for detailed advice and very constructive tone. OP, you'll be fine. Keep thinking, keep asking.

Grunchish: yaya. Fold pre probably the standard line and raising flop is god awful. Seems to be covered thoroughly.

What do you guys think of squeezing this? Not ideal with an utg raiser but we've only been at the table 15 min. It's the classic "top of my folding range" kind of hand.

A squeeze is most likely to succeed when you know the original raiser to be a loose player. Here we have no reads.

First of all, QJ suited in position is a perfectly legitimate flat to two tight opponents. On many low flops you can potentially outplay them. Their AK type hands having missed etc. Potentially in this case with stack sizes you may consider folding it but never make it a rule to not flat QJ.

Secondly the raise on the flop makes no sense.. You arent getting called by worse and very often in this spot when you get shoved on you're against a made hand and not nut flush draw. If you flat QJ pre- flat this flop. If villians check turn.. You can often take it away from them. Obviously if Jack hits you potentially win a big pot.

No, it's good when we know the original raiser is known to be a player who will fold to a 3 bet. Often a loose payer will just call your raise.

Flatting with QJs really isn't a good idea. you get in a lot of trouble this way.

Against tight opponents in position? I'd have to disagree.. Granted I don't expect to be ahead an overwhelming portion of the time if I flop top pair but in position it can be played like other suited connectors, a 76ss etc. I'm not condoning flatting in position with stack sizes in this particular hand but when deep stacked against similarly stacked tight opponents I feel its a perfectly legitimate hand to take flops with.

Do you flat with 78s? If so, why is that better than QJs? If your answer is because it's easier to fold 78s on an 8 high flop than it is to fold QJs on a Q high flop, then your postflop play needs work. I actually prefer QJs to 78s, because when QJs makes a straight it does so with high cards on the board that hit villains ranges harder.

Playing these medium strength top pairs isn't always glamorous as shoving a combo draw or triple barrel bluffing, but it's the meat and potatoes of poker. These situation occur frequently and navigating them right can have a good impact on the bottom line. If you make it a habit of just blindly folding whenever you only make top pair with a SC you're leaving money on the table. In this hand villains were basically telling him that his top pair was good with their crap flop play, and since hero was IP, he could exploit it. I thought the raise was a decent value move, although I see the value of peeling a card and seeing what they did on the turn.

One of the recurring themes I have seen over the last week in LLSNL, particularly in the $1/3 KK thread, is "why raise the flop when I (you) can take it away on the turn?"

I know you should never play like a robot and just follow step by step instructions, but is raising on the turn generally the better street to do it on when you sense weakness and think a raise may take it away there?

ie: I flat $15 on the flop. Pot is now $90. On the turn V1 bets $30-40, V2 calls $30-40, Hero reraises to $130-$140.

+1