I have really been trying to incorporate SPR theory into my game, so I would especially like to hear about that too.

Hero: Black Male early 30's, people always think im FOS, so mainly i play a TAG game and get paid off like I'm LAG. Will mix it up as I get deep and people come for my stack. Stack size 600

V1: White male, mid 20's, doesn't seem to competent. Pretty transparent, doesn't look to comfortable. Knows the game, enough, betting is straight forward. Stack size 200

V2: Asian guy, early 30's. TAG player, pretty savy for 1-2, handles his chips well, knows the game for the most part. Doesn't seem like your typical, stick it all in with a draw and let's see what happens, asian. Stack size 300

Two limpers Hero makes it 16 in the CO with 86

V2, calls and V1 min raies to 32 from the small blind. Normally i would pop this but with the guy behind me and this guy making the move out of the sb, i decide to call. If he made any sort of decent raised I would have folded bc I am ranging him JJ+ AK. Since he mind raised I call, V2 calls

Flop: 562 Pot (95)

V1 leads for 30. He reads super weak here with a horrible bet size. I decide to call and re eval on the turn, especially with V2 behind me. V2 calls.
At this point I am surprised, I just felt that V2 would be folding. At this point I start to give him credit for a pocket pair over the board, maybe 9's or a strong Ace. Honestly i couldn't decide which one it was, but after he called i realized the hand was going to be between me and him, prob not V1.

Turn 8 Pot (185)

I love this card, Now my thinking is I want him to stay in with either hand, over pair of nice ACE. V1 Checks, I want him to stay in the hand if he has a strong Ace or maybe spaz with an over pair. I bet 85, thoughts?

V2 thinks about it and calls, V1 folds. I am sure to jam any card that doesn't pair the board.

River 2 Pot (350)

Mother f%^#$... If he has an over pair (which honestly after the turn call how does he not?) I just got counterfitted. I check and he bets 100.

Here? I am not folding bc at this point a 100 is not enough given the pt size. I think about folding at first bc I feel I might be beat, but i look at the pot and his bet and think about SPR and realize i cannot fold. But should I jam? All thoughts are appreciated.

SPR is really a tool for use on the flop. It doesn't really apply here.

If people tend to see you as FOS, that's a good reason not to raise speculative hands. I would generally just overlimp here and look to flop a disguised monster. I don't mind raising it up every once in a while, but it wouldn't be my regular play.

AP, you are kind of priced in pre, but given V1's profile I would be folding almost every time I didn't hit the flop hard enough to get stacks in. V1's range crushes you. When a bad player min 3-bets, his range is generally JJ+, AK. V2's range is almost entirely medium PPs to flat both your raise and V1's. There may be a few hands like A9s in here, especially if your table image is more FOS than you thing, but not much even then.

You are still crushed by their ranges on the flop, but with the redic weak bet, I don't think you can fold it. I'd actually turn my SDV into a bluff and raise here. V1's bet is very weak, the board is dry and you did represent a strong hand by opening pre, so you can probably get V2 to lay down 99-JJ by raising, and V1 seems ready to give up, even though he knows he's supposed to c-bet.

Turn bet is too small. Bet about 2/3 of the pot for value.

AP, river F'ed you, as you surmised. I'd actually b/f here, and turn my hand into a bluff. V2's range just has you crushed at this point. Forget SPR, or even pot odds, what on earth can he have that you beat? The board is drier than an econ lecture and he called 4 times already. The absolute worst hand in his range is 78, and that beats you. Just save your money and fold.

You fold the hundred bucks with that pot? I don't blame you, i wanted to fold. But even with the amount of money in there?

finally a well thought out hand history

Yes I do. We beat nothing. A hundo saved is a hundo earned. If we shove, we rep nothing, and V will be getting redic odds to make a crying call, so there's almost nothing in his range (maybe 78s and A8s) that could fold. The vast majority of his range is overpairs, imo, and none of them fold to a shove.

What would you suggest of the river was a blank?

def bet more ott. bomb it. you want overpairs to commit here.

If river were a blank, I'd shove. He only has about 150 back, so I can't see how he could fold his overpair on a blank river for less than 1/2 pot.

Cool beans. I will keep this in mind in the future. I really thought most people would suggest I have to make a crying call. Interesting to see that even with the pot this big you feel a 100 saved is a 100 saved.

C/f > b/f imo. V is just calling anyway.

You need to bomb this Turn, especially multiway. One opponent has less than pot sized stack and you want to commit the other to the hand if there is action. You were fishing PF here with raise and call of (danger always) a min-raise and hit the jackpot pretty much (except sets). Ramp it up and force the issue. Most 1-2 players dont pay attention to pot sizes but even a bet of 120 or more would have been enough.

I dont mind a River call, but if I had realized my mistake on the Turn (betting too small) then I may fold instead of chasing bad money with more bad money. GL

Ok this is good advice, AND something I am still working on. I WANT this guy to call if he has two overs. I know he will call 120 plus if he has an over pair. But not with two overs. Do i still bet 120 plus when i know part of his range will fold to his bet? I think i have his entire range beat, but part of it will fold to a bigger bet, neither part of his range folds to this one (in my opinion)

So do i still bomb the turn? I mean normally i would, I just thought all the "worse hand call, better hand fold" advice warrants a bet he can call.

Gonna respond to Garlick's post beat-by-beat as it's well-reasoned but I disagree with a lot of it. While I'm using his post as a starting point, my comments are directed just as much at OP as they are at him.

I think about SPR just as much preflop as on the flop if not more (in fact almost certainly more), but I agree with the spirit of this. At this point in the hand, the only thing that matters is your equity against his range and the pot odds with which you are being presented. If these two factors in combination do not justify a call, do not call. SPR is more of a shortcut for range analysis/pot-odds analysis than a replacement for it.

I think raising is standard but overlimping isn't bad either. The more stationy villains are postflop the more I would be likely to overlimp. How likely the button is to continue when you raise is also an important factor to consider. Overall I like OP's play here but the EV of the two options is probably pretty similar, so whatever.

I agree with your analysis of V1's range. However, I think V2's range is much wider than you are giving it credit for; there are probably lots of lower PPs, suited aces, and decent SCs in it as well. I mean imagine you're V2 here with something like T9s: are you folding your button to a TAG's CO open (especially a TAG you might view as FOS)? Are you folding to that min-3bet closing the action after the CO PFR has already called, guaranteeing you a multiway pot with great pot odds and the best position postflop in both relative and absolute senses?

I really don't like raising here, because if V1's range is overpairs and broadways, he's only folding the parts of it you're already ahead of. And V2 might fold 99-JJ but I wouldn't necessarily bank on it at 1/2. I would reluctantly call, but I'd rather fold than raise tbh.

I agree that the bet is a tad on the small side, but I would only make it very slightly larger. Our main priority here should be setting up an easy river shove, and even a bet as small as OP's achieves this. Beyond that, we want to bet a size that both can call. I don't see the need to go more than $100.

Again, it seems like the SPR is a little lower than you think here. There's no room to b/f when villain has like a 1/2 pot bet behind. Similarly, I'm not sure why OP is considering shoving when villain just bet more than 1/2 of the stack he had going into the river; he's never folding. The only options on the river are shove and c/f, and I prefer c/f because he's unlikely to fold an overpair; who knows, maybe he'll check behind 87s or 77 or something and your hand will be good. Sucks that you got counterfeited. If the river is a blank I agree that we should definitely be jamming.

Ok so I have been looking at SPR wrong, and I am glad you cleared it up. It's more about bet sizing up front than calling in the end.

I ended up calling and he had the one hand i could beat (77) But i really thought i should call, but for the wrong reasons. Ironically enough, given the info I have gotten here i would probably shove or check/fold.

c/c > c/f > shove ... You ONLY get a call on a shove by hands that beat you and rarely get called by worse with this board. What hands are folding out that beat you? That is the only reason to effectively shove here. Have you done anything here to make anyone think you have AA/KK? Not really IMO.

Nothing wrong with a c/c here ...

'Bomb' may be too large a term here for the Turn, but at least 70-85% pot bet is certainly a good way to go with new draws out there and being multiway. Your bet did get you HU and in this case here you may have lost value to 77, but you certainly didnt make straights or overpairs pay a big enough price to hit their hand. GL

Ah, ok, and that is a fair enough point, I am not making straights or overpairs pay enough. In the future I will lean more towards making sure all of the range pays enough, rather than make sure all of the range calls. I basically think that's what you are saying

Um, what?

As for the rest of the hand, you turned gin and you didn't get it in. People aren't folding overpairs at $1/$2 very often, especially on a board like this.

Take the money that didn't go in the pot and keep it in your stack. You are either beat here or he has AK and will check the river.

Worse is just never, ever calling you.

I think it's a pretty bad call pre. You're playing a suited one-gapper vs a guy who's committed 1/6th of his stack and you're oop vs the stack you want to play against (with basically no information about his hand).

I think SPR is pretty relevant in this hand. On the turn, the effective stacks are $240 and the pot is $180. There is no good combination of turn/river bets that you can make. Whatever V2 called with on the flop, he's probably comfortable with the turn card. If you shove turn, he's calling with a very large portion of his range.

Disagree, I think shove is definitely better than c/c here. Villain has a little under a 1/2 pot bet left on the river, so he's unlikely to turn his hand into a bluff at this point (irrespective of the actual results obv) since he should have little fold equity (this is also why I like c/f), but he might crying call with 87 or 77. c/f > shove > c/c imo

'Bomb' may be too large a term here for the Turn, but at least 70-85% pot bet is certainly a good way to go with new draws out there and being multiway. Your bet did get you HU and in this case here you may have lost value to 77, but you certainly didnt make straights or overpairs pay a big enough price to hit their hand. GL[/QUOTE]
Overpairs and straight draws are already getting incorrect odds to draw if you bet $90-100, and you still have an easy river shove. You say "your bet did get you HU" like that's a good thing. You want both callers; that's extra value.

Ok, But you would fold pre to a min raise oop from a weak v?

I think I probably should have bet more on the turn. That i def agree with. I am surprised but get the people saying I should check fold the river.

Folding to a min raise pre though, doesn't seem sound

Just shove turn since V1 is never folding an overpair on this board for less than a PSB. River looks like a c/f.

Well, yes, you *think* about it pre, but it's mostly in terms of setting up what the SPR will be on the flop. I agree that we have SPR goals pre, but it's a measure that refers to the flop. Better verbiage?

You are 100% correct. I addressed that in a later post, but didn't look at how much V had behind in my first post. mea culpa.

Ah, I see what you meant now; my bad. Yeah I agree with you.

I do think about it on the flop too, just in a different context: as a rule of thumb for questions like "do I want to stack off with this TPTK?" or whatever, and it's situations like this that I thought you were referring to. Though I personally think SPR is overrated in these spots, it's still useful.

Garick ><"

Preflop is bad. Just limp. Flop is fine I guess, turn bet needs to be much bigger. River is not a decision, light your cards on fire as they are worthless.