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Old 06-29-2018, 03:41 AM   #26
Minatorr
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

Seems like a pretty good spot to flat. There's a good chance one or both players have a club, plus with our club it's less likely a club can roll off.

Jamming lets them make less mistakes, they might hero fold a T here whereas if we shove a blank turn we're getting snapped. Plus there's still V1 in the hand, and us shoving means he's always folding unless he has two pair+.
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:03 AM   #27
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Seems like a pretty good spot to flat. There's a good chance one or both players have a club, plus with our club it's less likely a club can roll off.

Jamming lets them make less mistakes, they might hero fold a T here whereas if we shove a blank turn we're getting snapped. Plus there's still V1 in the hand, and us shoving means he's always folding unless he has two pair+.
I would agree if OP were deeper, but the shove offers them almost 3:1 and they've both shown interest in the flop. Besides, it's 1/2 live. hands you have an equity edge on (like 2 pair) call here all day every day.
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:33 AM   #28
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

At 80bbs doesn't matter whether you jam or call. Since 2 people already put in $40 I prob jam. If villain 3 bet $40 and it was on us with 2 behind us yet to act then I would call.
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:43 AM   #29
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

I dunno why everyone thinks it’s impossible Tx or Kcx is going to fold once we shove here.
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Old 06-29-2018, 12:19 PM   #30
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Seems like a pretty good spot to flat. There's a good chance one or both players have a club, plus with our club it's less likely a club can roll off.

Jamming lets them make less mistakes, they might hero fold a T here whereas if we shove a blank turn we're getting snapped. Plus there's still V1 in the hand, and us shoving means he's always folding unless he has two pair+.
Nah m8 not with effective jam size being so little and the as played action.
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Old 06-29-2018, 01:30 PM   #31
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

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I dunno why everyone thinks it’s impossible Tx or Kcx is going to fold once we shove here.
It's not impossible, but it's only $110 more and they will be getting better than 2:1 on the call.

FWIW, I said TxX is not folding, not just a naked T. But it's 1/2 so you never know.
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Old 06-29-2018, 01:51 PM   #32
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

Johnny,

Why do you like a jam more than a raise to $90?
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Old 06-29-2018, 01:57 PM   #33
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

Because we started the hand with 80 BB’s, the SPR is 2.3x on the flop and there’s already been a bet and a call...

Why would we raise to $90 and leave $60 behind?
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Old 06-29-2018, 02:26 PM   #34
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

Johnny,

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Because we started the hand with 80 BB’s, the SPR is 2.3x on the flop and there’s already been a bet and a call...

Why would we raise to $90 and leave $60 behind?

Why wouldn’t we?

Are there hands that might call $50 more on the flop but not $110 more?

Are any of those hands that we’d prefer to fold out?

Who’s going to fold for $60 on the turn?

How do you make more money pushing than raising to $90 on the flop?

You can do the math based on opponent ranges and likely actions and decide which line results in more EV.
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Old 06-29-2018, 02:40 PM   #35
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

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Johnny,Are there hands that might call $50 more on the flop but not $110 more?.
No.
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Old 06-29-2018, 02:46 PM   #36
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

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Why wouldn’t we?
Because we lose fold equity in other hands when we're bluffing.

The actual math here isn't relevant since most plausible outcomes all end with the money in the pot somehow. So splitting hairs over EV doesn't seem worthwhile.

V's are going to noticed the aggressiveness of the play, more than they notice the short-stacked-ness of the situation. If you ever want to be able to jam as a bluff, you need to also have strong hands sometimes when you jam.
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Old 06-29-2018, 04:30 PM   #37
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

Johnny,

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No.

That’s simply incorrect at most low limit games.
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Old 06-29-2018, 04:31 PM   #38
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1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

Owl,

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Originally Posted by RagingOwl View Post
Because we lose fold equity in other hands when we're bluffing.

...

V's are going to noticed the aggressiveness of the play, more than they notice the short-stacked-ness of the situation. If you ever want to be able to jam as a bluff, you need to also have strong hands sometimes when you jam.
These are good points, even though it’s giving far too much credit to most low limit players.

However, even in games where that’s a factor, it’s important to select the right strong hands to jam with. Black aces are not one of the strong hands I’d pick to jam with in this situation.

Note that I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a shove in this spot. I just think a bull**** raise will be more profitable due to the specific circumstances of this hand.
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Old 06-29-2018, 04:54 PM   #39
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

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However, even in games where that’s a factor, it’s important to select the right strong hands to jam with. Black aces are not one of the strong hands I’d pick to jam with in this situation.
Im not sure we have many other strong hands that can jam. We're a female 1/2 player who is also the pre-flop raiser behind several limpers.

We don't have T5, T2, 52, 55, or 22.

As far as strong hands go, we have TT, AKcc, AQcc, AJcc, and maybe A9cc, KQcc, and getting less and less likely maybe KJcc, and QJcc. With these stack sizes, and the limpers ahead of us, we're probably not raising lower suited hands preflop. Hero is more likely to limp I'd guess. So we just don't have that many flushes.

You can reduce our range even further because there's an excellent chance that there is a V with the Kc or Qc in his hand, which blocks many of the aforementioned flush combos.

Now reduce it even more, because we need some of those flush combos to just call with. Like, we probably would just call with our nut flushes.

That leaves TT, and some non-nut broadway flushes that we didn't limp pre-flop. I don't think that's enough. Black AA is the best hand left.

My first post in this thread said to call. I will admit I didn't notice the short stack size when I posted that. At this point, I'm somewhat indifferent between calling and jamming. But I'm definitely not raising $90. I just don't see what that accomplishes.
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Old 06-29-2018, 05:04 PM   #40
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

Raging,

I think we can have more hands, with this size raise with this many people perceived as a pot sweetener in many loose LL games.

What raising to $90 accomplishes is sometimes getting one of the two players to call $50 more (I already have $40 in!) where they could let go for $110 more (I only have $40 in!), even though the other $60 is going in on the turn regardless.
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:50 PM   #41
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

I don't know how to hide the results on this but here it is
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Spoiler:

Last edited by Garick; 06-30-2018 at 11:55 AM. Reason: added spoiler tags
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Old 06-30-2018, 12:17 PM   #42
Garick
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Re: 1/2 Black Aces vs a possible multiway shove on club flop

Bad luck on the run-out, but still NH. Sure, they both had more equity than you, but giving the unknown guy a mix of TP+FD, small flushes, and small sets, you still had 22.91% equity. Your shove of $150 represented 22.62% of the $663 main pot, so you still got a slightly +EV shove, even running in to the top of two Vs' ranges.
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