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1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair? 1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair?

03-06-2011 , 11:43 PM
Reads: Villain is a good TAG, although sometimes he calls or raises preflop w/ questionable hands. I think he's a good TAG capable of switching to good LAG.

Stacks: I have $260, villain covers.

Preflop, MP limps, villain limps in the CO, I limp on the button w/ A10, SB calls, BB raises to $7. Everyone calls. Flop comes A108. Checks to villain who overbets, $50 into a $35 pot. I am the only caller. Turn is Q. Villain checks. Best move here and why? Sizing if you bet?

Anyway, what happened was I bet $85. Villain called. River is A, villain checks I shove.
1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair? Quote
03-07-2011 , 12:01 AM
2pr, the bane of our existence. lol

anyone raise flop? $150, call shove
1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair? Quote
03-07-2011 , 12:15 AM
I hate AT off, but given how the hand was played, you were on the button, and the raise relatively small, I can see calling the raise.

TopTwo on a 3 flush board. Ouch.

I have pokerstoved these and it comes down to range. Whenever I factor the semibluffs, TPTK and OP hands I usually have too much equity to fold with short or medium stacks.
1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair? Quote
03-07-2011 , 12:50 AM
Looks like he has TPTK/TPGK and was trying to push out the single heart hands on the flop by overbetting. I think you played it well. Could've been a cooler on the flop but as played I think you'll end up with +ev in the long run.
1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair? Quote
03-07-2011 , 12:59 AM
raise pre instead of limp and fold to 3bet.

As played, raise flop and get it in.

If you call flop, bet turn and get it in.

Betsizing turn; I dont have the energy to count pot size and stack size right now, but u wanna bet an amount, if possible, that allows him to push over u and think he might have FE, while at the same time, doesnt give him correct potodds to call with a draw.
1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair? Quote
03-07-2011 , 01:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8o8
2pr, the bane of our existence. lol

anyone raise flop? $150, call shove
I thought getting it in on the flop wasn't a good idea because IDK if our hand is quite strong enough here. Possible flush, possible 88. If we get it in vs villain here, we're likely either crushed or are not an overwhelming favorite, unless he has precisely a worse two pair. Raise flop still a good idea?

Of course, on the turn his check convinced me I had the best hand...
1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair? Quote
03-07-2011 , 01:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yodachoda
I thought getting it in on the flop wasn't a good idea because IDK if our hand is quite strong enough here. Possible flush, possible 88. If we get it in vs villain here, we're likely either crushed or are not an overwhelming favorite, unless he has precisely a worse two pair. Raise flop still a good idea?

Of course, on the turn his check convinced me I had the best hand...
i just figured if we flat, another heart kills our action if he's protecting Ax. and i guess we have outs against 88 and made flushes.. but ya, IRL i probably flat here. it's all kinda gross tho
1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair? Quote
03-07-2011 , 01:47 AM
I fold flop if my read on villain as a good TAG is for real (though I think that players who are actual honest-to-goodness good TAGs are rare at 1/2). Villain limped CO (something a good TAG isn't doing with any hand that made huge non-flush contact with this board except possibly A8) and then overbet into multiple opponents on a monotone board. **** doesn't get much stronger than that. Two pair is very unlikely to be good here IMO.

If we know he's going to check the turn (which is a bit puzzling but it's possible he's being cautious with like a 5 high flush) then I don't hate the call, as played on the turn I'm definitely checking back because I don't see what we're getting value from. He checks again on a brick river I'll poke out for value.

As played it looks like he has A8/AT so it obv worked out, but I think his flush combos are far too common as compared to his 2pair combos for this to be a profitable spot.
1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair? Quote
03-07-2011 , 01:48 AM
Wow can't believe some of the replies. First off your 2pair here is like bottom pair on any board. Villain over bets the pot. You call with 2pair no heart. You only call on this board with a set or Axs but this board standards are lowered its Qxs or Kxs that's it.

Your call is spew, you thinking of betting turn is spew also. River hey you hit a miracle card.

"Nice Hand"
1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair? Quote
03-07-2011 , 02:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaffer
I fold flop if my read on villain as a good TAG is for real (though I think that players who are actual honest-to-goodness good TAGs are rare at 1/2). Villain limped CO (something a good TAG isn't doing with any hand that made huge non-flush contact with this board except possibly A8) and then overbet into multiple opponents on a monotone board. **** doesn't get much stronger than that. Two pair is very unlikely to be good here IMO.

If we know he's going to check the turn (which is a bit puzzling but it's possible he's being cautious with like a 5 high flush) then I don't hate the call, as played on the turn I'm definitely checking back because I don't see what we're getting value from. He checks again on a brick river I'll poke out for value.

As played it looks like he has A8/AT so it obv worked out, but I think his flush combos are far too common as compared to his 2pair combos for this to be a profitable spot.
Your post is pretty puzzling as his range is real wide and may include hands like KJ, AJ, KQ. Those are all very powerful hands on this flop that have about 50% equity against anything but flushes. Folding flop is crazy...

But villain may also take this line (and check turn) w/ hands that are beating us like small flushes, KJ, 88. In other words, hands that fear WE have the flush.

So consensus is turn bet is fine, what about sizing. Should it be closer to pot sized to give him poor odds? 1/2 pot sized bet large enough?
1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair? Quote
03-07-2011 , 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yodachoda
Your post is pretty puzzling as his range is real wide and may include hands like KJ, AJ, KQ. Those are all very powerful hands on this flop that have about 50% equity against anything but flushes. Folding flop is crazy...

But villain may also take this line (and check turn) w/ hands that are beating us like small flushes, KJ, 88. In other words, hands that fear WE have the flush.

So consensus is turn bet is fine, what about sizing. Should it be closer to pot sized to give him poor odds? 1/2 pot sized bet large enough?
I eliminated these hands from contention based off of villain's preflop line. If they are part of his preflop range then your definition of a TAG differs from mine then (which is fine). By my definition a TAG is not limp-calling pre with any of the hands that you mention, particularly from the cutoff. They tend to limit their limp-calls to speculative hands, which of course on this board either connected with the flush or not at all.

If these hands are part of villain's range and factor into your TAG definition then yes, we have the equity to call on the flop.

I think the turn bet is suicide regardless.
1/2, bet or check turn w/ two pair? Quote
03-07-2011 , 03:35 PM
Preflop: Nothing wrong with overlimping. EDIT: It's worth at least considering 3 betting after BB raises. The small raise raise looks like a "pot builder" and there are very few hands that are ahead of AT that would limp/call other than pocket pairs less than TT and most of those will fold if you kick it up. A 3bet kind of looks like a bluff, but if your opponents aren't smart enough to pick up on that take their money.

Flop: CO's overbet likely signals one of three things. If the other players in the pot are total fish he's betting for value. There's no point in him betting $25 with the nuts if he knows a goofball will be willing to give him $50. If the other players are more sane, he's trying to protect something that can get wrecked by a on the turn (88, baby flush, 2 pair or something like AJ or A9). Also, don't discount a bluff as he may just be trying to pick up a big pot after the table has shown weakness, but thinks he has to bet large to get an A or flush draw to fold.

If you can both rule out a value bet and you don't think your other opponents are loose enough to overcall with weak hands then I agree with calling.

Turn: I would also bet around $85. It's okay if you make worse hands fold since you can get bluffed out by a river . Your flop call shows extreme strength and your bet makes it look like you're pot committed so your bet may even get a hand like 65 to fold and it's also possible you'll get action from a hand that you beat like A8.

River: Easy shove. I agree with your action on every street.

Just my opinion...

Last edited by Moneyline; 03-07-2011 at 03:41 PM.
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03-07-2011 , 08:00 PM
I think most people in this thread are drastically misinterpreting the meaning of villain's overbet into multiple opponents, particularly following a limp-call pre.
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