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Old 06-02-2014, 05:26 AM   #1
mer
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1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

Hero - 30 yo, been at table for about an hour playing tag. Shown down AK once on A53 J K to win 200 pot vs AT.

Villain 1 - Young chinese guy early 20s. Calling station. VPIP 80 PFR 10 at a guess from what I've been seeing of him. Never played with him before.

Villain 2 - Old American guy, 50-60 yo. Have played with him before and he is the ultimate nit.

Hero QQ

Hero BB (350)
V1 MP (500)
V2 BTN (200)

V1 calls 2.

V2 raise 17. (average table raise had been 7-10 so this was somewhat on the larger side)

H calls 17. (Should I raise here? V2 range is 10, JJ, KK, AA, AK)

Flop (52)

J62

H checks
V1 checks
V2 checks

Turn (52)

T

H bets 30
V1 raises 80
V2 folds
H calls

River (212)

3

H checks
V1 bets 110

hero?
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Old 06-02-2014, 05:31 AM   #2
vjniel
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Re raise preflop if nit goes above fold else take control of hand try to keep pot size small easy?

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Old 06-02-2014, 05:36 AM   #3
bobbycoconuts
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

3 bet pre, call on river is fine
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Old 06-02-2014, 05:41 AM   #4
jesse123
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

I would have played it more aggressively earlier in the hand. I'd like to see a 3-bet pre and a flop lead.
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Old 06-02-2014, 05:57 AM   #5
sheled007
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

call. I think he got AJ or a set, you must call IMO because chances for a set are always low.
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Old 06-02-2014, 06:29 AM   #6
RoyalRumble
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

I like the flat pre. Ensures to keep the 80/10 in and stops us isolating ourselves vs a very strong range from the old nit.

I would lead this flop because we have a clear 3 streets of value hand vs the 80/10 and I expect the old nit to fold AK/TT more often than not on the flop and never bet turn without having QQ beat so we can bet/bet/shove vs the 80/10 and not put anymore money in pot vs old nit pretty confidently.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:19 AM   #7
day'n'night
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

ultimate nit you say... do you honestly think he will raise KQ AK ? no, he is range will be a slowplayed JJ, TT for turned set and maybe AA KK but not sure he would play like that, easy fold on the river, but vs a ultimate nit folding turn is fine also
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:11 AM   #8
mer
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by day'n'night View Post
ultimate nit you say... do you honestly think he will raise KQ AK ? no, he is range will be a slowplayed JJ, TT for turned set and maybe AA KK but not sure he would play like that, easy fold on the river, but vs a ultimate nit folding turn is fine also
The old guy folded on the turn so I was left heads up with the chinese kid.

8 times out of ten I would re raise PF, but V2's slightly large raise caught me off guard a little so I flatted (mistake in hindsight).

On the flop I thought about donking but decided to check call bets from either player, once it was checked all round I was fairly confident I had the best hand so fired turn.

CK's raise narrowed his range down to either Jx, JT or a set in my head.

On the river I did end up calling after a little tank and he flipped over pocket 6's to scoop.

The way he was playing I think even if I had 3B to 40-45 he would have called.

A bit of a cooler but I agree it was a mistake to just flat pre.
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:13 AM   #9
bunkers
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Ultimate nit u said.. Flatting was fine to keep the fish in.the hand.. What were ur plans for.checking the flop? I would actually bet fold flop if raised or if flatted will reeval the turn.. As played I see more reasons to fold after we have taken such a passive lines earlier

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Old 06-02-2014, 08:16 AM   #10
Gilmour
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

Why are we not 3 betting QQ preflop here in position? Even if villain is tight QQ is way ahead of his raisingrange.

I probably 3 bet this hand around 80-90 percent of the times- the times i do choose to flat is against other regs i play with alot to mix it up.
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:24 AM   #11
mer
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

They both had position on me.

Thinking about it a bit more I should have folded river as well after a turn raise and river bet from such a passive player.
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:28 AM   #12
Gilmour
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by mer View Post
They both had position on me.

Thinking about it a bit more I should have folded river as well after a turn raise and river bet from such a passive player.
Yeah, my fault- misreading.

We are in the BB, i still want to 3 bet preflop for value. It also makes the hand much easier to play OOP compared to flatting pre.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:43 AM   #13
Mr_Doomed
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

If his pre flop range is what you say it is I'd say Flatting is perfectly fine. It allows all his weaker hands to value own them selves later. Not saying that 3 betting is wrong by any means.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:46 AM   #14
RoyalRumble
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilmour View Post
Why are we not 3 betting QQ preflop here in position? Even if villain is tight QQ is way ahead of his raisingrange.

I probably 3 bet this hand around 80-90 percent of the times- the times i do choose to flat is against other regs i play with alot to mix it up.
OP described villain as ultimate nit and gave his perceived range for this sizing from this player as TT+ and AK so therefore QQ is about 50% vs that range and since we can expect him to sometimes fold TT/JJ and Ak to a 3bet it is not really a value 3bet for me. We may even want to fold to a 4bet from this player.
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:33 AM   #15
Gilmour
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalRumble View Post
OP described villain as ultimate nit and gave his perceived range for this sizing from this player as TT+ and AK so therefore QQ is about 50% vs that range and since we can expect him to sometimes fold TT/JJ and Ak to a 3bet it is not really a value 3bet for me. We may even want to fold to a 4bet from this player.

It is still a value 3 bet- even if that nitty of a range is correct assigned by OP. We will valuetown him alot with his TT/JJ hands on raggy flops, at least for one street. This player type will often flat our 3 bet with his AK combos, and then he will miss the flop 60 percent of the times- and we take down the pot with a C-bet.

If he does come over the top with a 4 bet, its an easy laydown for us- but that will happen so rarely (that we actually get 4 bet by this player type) so i am not really concerned about that. The conclusion for me is that i see more heavy arguments for 3 betting than i do for flatting.
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:36 AM   #16
AKAWhatALyfe
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Re: 1/2 - awkward spot with QQ

Call as played. He turns up with just a J here more times than you would expect.
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