Hi all

About me: regular at $25NL 6 max. New to live games

This hand came up at a 8 players live game ($1/$2) and i don't really see that situation online at $25NL 6 max:

Preflop: Hero has KQ and 80BB
UTG Loose guy raises to 3BB
UTG + 1: Hero reraise to 10BB

5 callers. Pot = 50BB
Flop: Q78. Hero has 70BB
UTG: checks
UTG + 1: Hero?

Preflop notes: he has been raising light so this is a standard 3 bet (he had 56 by the way)

Flop notes: My problem on the flop is that I am pot committed if I make a c-bet of 35BB.

I have ran into that situations several times and i have ended up losing my stack to a set or 2 pairs: basically, I am trying to get away from pot commitment on the flop with premium/TPTK multiway.

How do you handle that situation?

thanks

Dont post results/V's hand yet.

You flopped likely the best hand on a pretty dry board. Heard of SPR?

Also, i assume the reason why you 3bet against the loose player is you are getting value with your relative strong holding against his much wider range. You 3! Out of position, with a short stack, to isolate the fish, build a big pot, gets decent stack sizing to get your chips in (with some backdoor flush draw equity) and you are worried about pot controlling?

Your table is obviously quite loose preflop. If you keep on entering the pot multiway with premium holdings then adjust your raising size to iso a little more so you arent always committed with stack to pot.
Also buy in for full

4 callers?
Damn... are you playing 18-handed - or does everyone at your table just think you're full of s**t?
(It's rare that I get 4 callers when I bet 20 - but that's because I'm a nit!)

Since your table is playing so loose AND you're so short-stacked - I think there's really no way you can play this hand and not be pot committed.
(If you REALLY didn't want to pot-commit yourself with such a hand - you shouldn't 3-bet it!)

I think the standard line here is to bet 1/2 to 3/4 pot - which I would bet 65-75... and if someone repopped me, I'm calling.
If your table is loose, you'll probably get calls from T9, Qx (including Q7 & Q6), 56 - and yes 7,8 which has you beat.
But if you check/fold - you're becoming exploitable.

I think you're starting to see here a big difference btwn online and live play. At the casino, folks are only one-tabling and they HATE to fold. Personally, I would never 3-bet KQs UTG+1 because I hate building a pot oop for others to steal or win by playing stronger hands. My 3-betting range seems to be much, much tighter than yours. Here, I would have just flatted.

And I definitely wouldn't be doing it with such a small stack. KQs is a much better raising hand in LP when there are few to no limpers.

So with your TPGK (top pair good kicker), I'd b/c any raise.

EDIT: one more thing to add. When playing live, you need to pay attention to the players and how they play. Each player will have tendencies that you can exploit. For anyone here to give you any reasonable advice as to what to do here.. you should have a brief description of each V that called, what their range might be and how they respond to pfr, c/r, etc.
Asking folks what to do here so that you don't get in trouble is like going to the doctor and saying "every time I do this, it hurts. what should I do?" The best answer would be "Don't do this!"

If you're looking to isolate, it may be better to make your 3bet a little bigger.

To be honest though, I'm probably just calling the original raise when we're this shallow and we don't reallly have position on the rest of the table. It's unlikely that you get squeezed, but very likely your reraise will get called in more than one spot, which will lead us to tough spots later on.

I used to do this too and it frustrated me a lot, because you know your range is crushing his, but it sucks shipping with top pair just to get snapped off by the guy who overcalled with 52o and hit bottom 2p. Sometimes you can't get away from it, because people like to gamble and our stack-to-pot ratio is going to be low. This is why I try to keep the pot smaller with multiway hands pre (unless stacks are 200bb+), and try to build the pot as much as possible pre with my premiums.

That being said, in your scenario my range there would be mostly premiums, while if I'm on the button I'm going to widen my 3bet range considerably and squeeze a lot (again, depending on stack sizes).

In this particular case, I'm almost always betting the flop and I'm never going to fold once I do, since we have too much invested.

Would anyone check raise all in on the flop here?

Its a little awkward to shove here and I dont think its the best play. I also dont like betting half of our stack now then the rest later on the turn.

If this is a table that people will bet their pair and draws, maybe itll set things up nicely for a shove if we check from utg+1.

If it gets checked around though, then re eval the turn.

I like this line... but - if someone makes the bet we should be making - 60-75, then our shove of 140 gives them the pot odds to call...
so we've got little FE.

IMO, whoever's betting will be calling - even if they're on a draw.

it really doesnt matter what you do between ch/shove and bet/call or bet flop/shove turn. the difference in EV is so small because we get value from the same range of hands because no one is going to be bluffing or leading out lightly in a 3-bet 5-way pot. so the hands we get value from are T9, 65, QJ and that doesn't change whether we lead or ch/shove.

Except for the fact that someone might check T9/65 and then that sucks a lot so I slightly prefer betting like $70 and putting the rest in OTT.

if we're 3-betting this preflop then we're at a table where if we hit TP2K with an spr of under 1.5 otf, the money is going in.

That said, if our 3-bet is going 5-way and you dont know what the **** to do when you hit top pair, why are you 3-betting? Whats your plan for when you miss? I can't really say because it depends on table dynamics, but the 3-bet seems like it'd be -EV.

Its likely that one of the 7 players behind you will wake up with a better hand, your hand can easily be dominated, it looks like youre at a table where you're just going to get flatted a lot behind you by stations and have to play them OOP with a hand that will miss like 65% of the time, and your hand plays well multiway with high SPRs... just because the UTG player is opening a super wide range is not good enough of a reason to 3-bet from UTG+1 with KQs. And this is coming from a guy who mashes the 3-bet button.

I'd bet about 1/2 pot, or slightly less, on the flop, and then shove turn.

why the **** do we want FE?

flat pre

Welcome to the forum.

A lot of internet players have the same struggle you have and they are often winning 25nl players. People seem to know nothing about the game, but you keep losing to them. Here's why.

First, table conditions vary far greater in live than 25nl. You don't have multi-tablers, who are playing the same style across many tables. Online, when people get tired, they take a break or leave. Live, they invested time in getting there. They are going to try to play through being tired. So the mood of the table will vary.

Next, 25nl is a middle ranking level of play. They may be bad, but there are players below them that are worse. At 1/2, you're at the bottom of the games available. There's a big jump in bankroll to play 2/5. So you'll run into people of all levels of experience and goals.

Finally, 6 max is a more open game than FR post flop. With 10 players, the odds of running into a bigger hand is greater.

To beat live, you're going to have break some artificial constraints you put yourself under. Most 25nl players only have one way to play and search out playing conditions that match up well to their one style. One constraint is there are "standard" plays. You don't 3bet because it is "standard." You 3bet for a reason with a goal in mind.

The next constraint is that you 3bet a certain amount. If you have a premium and 5 people are calling 10BB 3 bets, then you need to experiment with 15BB 3bets. Maybe it is 20BB. Whatever it is, you want to make that bet that is going to generate just the one or two callers you want.

A third constraint is pot commitment. Nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to put the rest of your chips in. If you are beat, you fold, even if it is for $1.

There's more than these you have, but it is a start.

I thought you internet guys were used to variance. If you're not committing on this flop with that hand and effective stacksize then you're going to be burning money. After you 3!, get all those callers and hit tpgk, you have to be commited

Good relevant post from Venice.

I want to add couple of things regarding liveplay compared to online. I was a multitabler onlineplayer myself, when i started to play regurarly live for 2-3 years ago.

One of the biggest differences is that it is a lot less bluffraising "automatic" button clicking going on in liveplay.

Lets say you raise it up preflop with AQ and gets 3 callers: board comes 10-10-5. You C-bet an healthy amount and getting raised. Online this is a classic board to bluffraise and having a bluffrange- but live, your are almost always beat here when you getting raised. From my own experience during 2-3 years with liveplay and several hundred hours, is that the vast majority of the live low stakes players pretty much never bluff when it comes to big serious bets. You have som exeptions, but those a rare.

I had good experience when starting out live to play extremely tight and observe much as i could on gameflow, what hands the other guys played, what hands people showed down in big pots and so on. Then when i got more familiar with game dynamics and how the game played out live, i started to open up more with my own hand selection.

This is how the action went:

Preflop: Hero has KQ and 80BB
UTG Loose guy raises to 3BB
UTG + 1: Hero reraise to 10BB

5 callers. Pot = 50BB
Flop: Q78. Hero has 70BB
UTG: checks
UTG + 1: Hero bets 30BB
UTG + 2: Calls 30BB
MP: folds
CO: folds
UTG: raises to 100BB and is all-in
UTG + 1: Hero calls
UTG + 2: calls

Turn: Q
River: 2

UTG shows 56 and wins
UTG + 1 shows KQ
UTG + 2 shows AA


Thanks for all your comments

Grunch: (this means I'm responding after reading only the original post, none of the responses)

Don't ISO in EP with KQs and 80BB effective and then try to pot control. If you are isoing that early, you are going all the way with TPGK.

Generally, don't try to ISO light in EP in live 1/2, as it rarely works. You end up playing a bloated pot OOP with a marginal holding. KQs plays well multi-way, even OOP, so I flat here.

As played, you absolutely cannot pot control with an SPR of less than 1.5-1 and TPGK. You made your decision pre-flop. Now ride the variance train to value town.

OK, off to read the other posts...

Grunch: you put an eighth of your stack in preflop. This is one time when you should be committed.

You (or at least I) see way tougher spots by calling a small raise with what is mostly a top pair hand, way out of position, and let everyone in behind. A lot of the time you'll end up committing more money on the flop which ends up being dead money depending on how the flop hits the other callers you let in.

I think I'd rather fold to this raise than just call it. 3betting to try to isolate is probably fine though.

What is your play if UTG folds and we have this hand?

Probably raise. But my raise will be to more than $6.

I would probably flat pf since the hand plays well multiway. I'm playing this hand multiway ideally to hit two pair or better and get value from top pair hands or weaker two pairs. That's typically my design if 5+ go to the flop. Also, in my game at least, once the first person calls, more callers are likely per "pot odds" with many worse hands.

As played, I might check through the flop and/or call a small flop bet looking to improve on the turn, and then apply pressure with a large bet and one card to come. I know I'm probably ahead on the flop, but I would hate for someone to check/raise me with a one pair hand, especially if they would do that with a draw or better hand. I just think the turn is a better place to get my money in on this board, especially if my hand even slightly improves by getting a on the turn.

Fair enough, but do you believe that you have additional FE by making it $12 instead of $6? It doesn't take away from the fact that we're going to have to deal with being OOP for the hand, despite having a lower SPR.

IMO we can't fold KQs when the raiser (who happens to be UTG) raises every hand, but it's tough to iso with such a relatively weak hand when we have the rest of the table to act behind us. I know that sounds contradictory, but the fact that we almost never get squeezed here and the flop will almost always be multiway is the key reason I'm calling. We should be good enough to call and make the right decision on the flop, either deciding to play a big pot or a small one.

In a tough game with a tight villain and similar stack sizes, I am more likely to fold.

I don't care about fold equity. That's not at all the basis of my decision.

What I do care about is two things that I get by raising that I don't get by calling a $6 raise:

1) I decide how much the callers are being charged to see a flop.

2) I make up for the lack of position by having the initiative.

#1 is a pretty easy point. When I call $6, now I'm inviting people with all manner of hands to play with position on both the raiser and me, for the low, low price of $6. This isn't a good situation, even if I don't get squeezed off my hand preflop. If these guys are going to call, I want them paying a price that I set, not that someone else sets. (Even more true of the iso-3bet: if they are going to cold call with trash, I want to let them do it!) This segues into #2.

Having everyone play for $6 when I have the worst position at the table is awful. It almost doesn't matter what the flop is--if the preflop raiser c-bets, I have to act before everyone else does. This is fine if I miss; I can just fold. But if I hit, I have a choice: raise the flop (which is sometimes overplaying my hand) and risk someone waking up behind me with a better hand (or knocking someone off a second-best hand and missing value)? Or just call, inviting someone to draw with position on me and good pot odds?

The fact that they're getting good pot odds is sometimes exacerbated if the c-bet size is small, which isn't up to me, it's up to the guy who started by raising to $6. If I have initiative and I am betting my own hand, this is less of an issue. (And if the preflop raiser doesn't c-bet, this is also not an issue.)

It's hard to know whether the pot is going to be big or small from out of relative position. Calling $6 preflop maximizes the chance that I will be giving dead money to someone else on the flop.

Why are people itt saying that kq is a hand that plays well multiway out of position?

Fold>3bet>Call.