Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-20-2016, 02:23 AM   #1
I_Cant_Win
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 74
1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

2 limps EP
V BTN raise to 8 $350
H SB raise to 25 AK $250
Limps fold

Flop J86

H Checks
V bets 35
H calls

TURN 3
H Checks
V checks

River 10

H BETS 65
V shoves

I am certain i made a ton of mistakes during the play of this hand. V's check on the turn made me think I could possibly get a fold from an under pair with a value bet bluff. Needless to say I got out played

Was I better off just cbetting my hand on that flop? Was this a bad spot to check HU OOP against a standard ABC opponent?

Should I have flatted pre and fold on the flop without feeling committed to seeing what the turn would bring?

It feels like I played this hand like a spazz any input and ideas would be appreciated.
I_Cant_Win is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 02:30 AM   #2
Dream Crusher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Dream Crusher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Dallas
Posts: 15,254
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

Why don't you have any reads on the villain? It's very difficult to construct ranges and make good decisions with limited information. In general with no information about the villain, I'd say that check calling the flop is probably the worst option we have here (vs check/folding, cbetting, or check raising)
Dream Crusher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 11:47 AM   #3
I_Cant_Win
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 74
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

When he calls my 3 bet preflop I think he's range is 55-QQ, K10-KQ, A10-AK.

Now looking at the range of hands I believe I would have been much better off cbetting this flop and continued to be the aggressor against his range of hands that I thought he could have.

After taking the 3 bet line from the SB do you think cbetting on this board is standard? Or would I be better off not over playing my AKs to disguise the strength of my hand and play it soft out of the SB as it is not yet a made hand?
I_Cant_Win is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 11:53 AM   #4
Buster65
The Situation
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Livin' on Bluff Rd.
Posts: 2,240
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

Good 3 bet. If I was going to flat AK in the SB, it would be AKo. Yes to cbet, btw.
Buster65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 12:04 PM   #5
Dream Crusher
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Dream Crusher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Dallas
Posts: 15,254
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Cant_Win View Post
When he calls my 3 bet preflop I think he's range is 55-QQ, K10-KQ, A10-AK.

Now looking at the range of hands I believe I would have been much better off cbetting this flop and continued to be the aggressor against his range of hands that I thought he could have.

After taking the 3 bet line from the SB do you think cbetting on this board is standard? Or would I be better off not over playing my AKs to disguise the strength of my hand and play it soft out of the SB as it is not yet a made hand?
In general players don't 3bet enough, and you should certainly be 3betting here for value, especially considering there are 2 limpers behind (AK plays better heads up) and villain will call with a dominated range. A cbet here is pretty standard (especially if you have a tight or winning image), but vs some villains it is better to check/fold (ie vs an opponent that only plays a very strong range and plays their hands straight forward)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster65 View Post
Good 3 bet. If I was going to flat AK in the SB, it would be AKo. Yes to cbet, btw.
I'd argue that it is even more imperative to 3bet AKo. HU it's equity is very similar but AKs will play better in multiway pots.
Dream Crusher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 12:07 PM   #6
Buster65
The Situation
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Livin' on Bluff Rd.
Posts: 2,240
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Crusher View Post
I'd argue that it is even more imperative to 3bet AKo. HU it's equity is very similar but AKs will play better in multiway pots.
Didn't say I wouldn't 3bet AKo, just said if there was one of the 2 I would remove from my 3bet SB range, I would sooner remove AKo.
Buster65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 12:08 PM   #7
a12
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 825
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

I think 3b is fine with this hand, but I'd make it bigger. Something around the $35-$40 mark. Then C-bet a bit bigger on good flops (ones that hit you, T high and lower, paired flops, fd's etc). If you feel uncomfortable with that then Should I have flatted pre and fold on the flop without feeling committed to seeing what the turn would bring? is OK.

It feels like I played this hand like a spazz Where do *you* think you made a mistake, and why do you think it was a mistake?
a12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 12:11 PM   #8
QuadJ
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,425
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

More information on villain could make a big difference in this situation. In particular, does his oddly small preflop raise size mean anything? Some information on your image and how the table has been playing in general would also be helpful.

In abstract preflop should be a raise most of the time with the occasional call to mix things up. Sizing is good, no reason to go more then $25 with no callers in between but OOP you need to raise enough to apply pressure.

On the flop either cbet or check/fold. This is such an obvious board for a c-bet that you should just give up sometimes. You don't have a pair and only some long shot backdoor draws. Villain isn't folding any pocket pair or any part of board to the first bet and may float wide. So if you c-bet you need to plan to barrel most turns and that gets expensive quickly. Without more drawing potential you should never be check/calling unless your trying to exploit a particular villain.
QuadJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 02:27 PM   #9
niceguy22
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 819
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

Just the fact that you 3 bet pre will make villain more cautious, meaning hes unlikely to bet with air on the flop, making check calling bad.

Say if you raised mp with ak, and villain calls on the button; in that case, check calling flop is much more reasonable vs a villain that is at least somewhat aggro because you have sorta under repped a bit, encouraging bluffs, but this flop connects with a lot of hands that have at least a little equity (gutshots etc) so id prefer a continuation bet. In my made up scenario, id check call a flop that is hard to hit somewhat often.

I almost never bluff catch in hands where i 3 bet
niceguy22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 02:35 PM   #10
champagnepapi
newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 30
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

imo the 3b should be a bit bigger pre in the 30-40 range. you should also be cbetting this on the flop and barreling any boardway/spades on the turn. also im personally just giving up on this river. the river jam is basically a bluff or 10s. either way I'm folding.
champagnepapi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 03:51 PM   #11
pologuy64
adept
 
pologuy64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hopefully Back in Cincy Soon!
Posts: 1,124
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

3 bet is fine, bet the flop...
pologuy64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 04:48 PM   #12
I_Cant_Win
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 74
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

My image was a tight, I had played little to no hands and took certain lines with marginal hands in position and my showdowns consisted of top pairs OOP, and two pair hands in position.

Here is a hand that played out that made me think he was weak when he checked on the turn.

Utg same V raise to 7
Utg+1 calls
Hero Utg +2 calls JdJh
All others fold

This was one hand I elected to flat with jacks to. Disguise my hand strength. Although 3 betting for value was not a bad idea either considering especially to reduce the chances of a domino effect from the other players in MP and Later positions.

Flop comes 7d 6d 7h
V leads 20
Utg+ 2 calls
Hero calls

turn
2c

V Checks
Utg+1 checks
Hero bets 40

Both fold

I felt that both situations were a bit similar when he checked the turn. Which is why u decided to bet my 65 on the river instead of checking it down with virtually no show down value.

Although his range of hands he is calling a 3 bet with definitely makes him seem stronger I had figured I could flat the flop bet and possibly take the pot away on the river.

One of the first hands I opened (after folding about my first 20 hands) :
MP calls 2
MP+2 calls 2
HJ calls 2
V Button calls 2
SB Folds
BB raise to 16 8c8d

2 MP limppers call
HJ folds
V button Calls

Flop:
9c, 6d, 4c

Hero BB leads 35
Everyone folds.

Seemed that V did not check value hands when he checks the turn. Also that he over limps and calls raises from the button.

The tricky check he made on the turn made me think that I could get him to fold a better hand if I lead out on the river, instead he jams and I obviously fold and he shows JJ for top set.

I guess I could have cbet the flop, c/f the turn. Most likely would be the best line to take here the way the hand played out given his range of hands he is calling a 3 bet with pre?
I_Cant_Win is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2016, 03:05 AM   #13
BackDoorFlush
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,171
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

Pre is good; c-bet flop; double barrel turn.

When you fire the second barrel on the turn, only the worst players/biggest stations will continue with JT.
BackDoorFlush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2016, 09:32 AM   #14
keybattle
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 662
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

3-bet pre, C-bet this flop, double-barrel this turn.


Flop c-bet > c/fold > c/call
keybattle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2016, 11:25 AM   #15
DeathCabForTootie
Pooh-Bah
 
DeathCabForTootie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: SHR Tunaments
Posts: 5,722
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BackDoorFlush View Post
Pre is good; c-bet flop; double barrel turn.

When you fire the second barrel on the turn, only the worst players/biggest stations will continue with JT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keybattle View Post
3-bet pre, C-bet this flop, double-barrel this turn.


Flop c-bet > c/fold > c/call
Why is the turn a good double barrel? I think it's just about the worst turn card to barrel.
DeathCabForTootie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2016, 12:16 PM   #16
keybattle
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 662
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie View Post
Why is the turn a good double barrel? I think it's just about the worst turn card to barrel.

Misread the cards. I thought hero got backdoor flush draw..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
keybattle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2016, 08:10 PM   #17
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,226
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

Yeah, turn is a terrible barrel. Gotta cbet flop though.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2016, 03:16 AM   #18
Heroball
temp-banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: The Neutral Zone with Dee Ford
Posts: 9,402
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster65 View Post
Good 3 bet. If I was going to flat AK in the SB, it would be AKo. Yes to cbet, btw.

I was thinking the exact opposite. I'd rather flat and play AKs multiway, and ISO raise with AKos.
Heroball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2016, 05:32 AM   #19
Buster65
The Situation
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Livin' on Bluff Rd.
Posts: 2,240
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroball View Post
I was thinking the exact opposite. I'd rather flat and play AKs multiway, and ISO raise with AKos.
AKs has more value. If you would rather add the hand with more value to your flatting range and take it away from your 3 betting range, that's fine. Different strokes for different folks. I prefer to keep it in my 3 betting range from either blind (but my bets are more polarized from the blinds). It's kind of a moot point anyway, since I will 3 bet either AKs or AKo from the blinds. I just made the point earlier that if I had to pick, I keep the more value hand.
Buster65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2016, 04:22 PM   #20
NelsonWelson
centurion
 
NelsonWelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 128
Re: 1/2 AsKs SB 3 bet incorrect play?

I would 3 bet a little bigger pre, $30-35. I would also c-bet the flop, 1/3-1/2 pot and barrel all broadway cards/spades.

As played just give up after the flop... didn't work out.
NelsonWelson is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive