Blinds 1/2

SB: 175
MP: 90
Hero (BTN): 250

2 or 3 limpers up to me with AcQd on BTN. I raise to 14 and SB and MP calls.

Pot ~50
Flop As 9d 7d

SB checks, MP donkbets 30 into me.

This was tricky because I am happy getting it in against the shortstack but I have the SB left to act after me. If I just call the 30 I will give SB odds to draw fairly wide and then there are a ton of cards on the turn that would be scary (ie straight or flush cards).

- So should I call or raise here?
- If I raise how much should I make it?
- Finally, if I raise and SB ships can I get away from the hand?

History

SB and I were involved in a hand earlier where he called my raise OOP and called my cbet with AJo on a Q9x board, he then led turn on a T trying to rep a straight. Overall he was fairly loose passive though.

MP just sat down a couple of hands ago. I can't quite explain it but he just looked like he had no idea what he was doing.

Based on your read, I'd raise to 80. I'm guessing the MP has A-rag. He'll call down with worse. Obviously if the the SB has a set, he's going nowhere, but it will be hard for him to call with a draw.

Raise to $105 ...and I'm not looking to get away from anyone (although if SB shoves, I ain't happy but I ain't folding obviously.)

+1 to raise. I go 115, snap off a SB shove. The donkey leading makes me worry he's got 2pair with A9/A7/79. But oh well.

Does anyone min-raise here?

I have been in these spots before with someone behind me. Given this stack sizes, the shortie is not just calling your raise, its either fold or shove. Only a minraise will reopen the action given my floor-rules.

There is no guarantee that the SB has got anywhere near this board. Making it 60 to him is the same as making it 85, its a bet and a raise. Depending on the villian that SB is, he folds out most of his hands at this point, if he puts in more action and is pretty tight, we can get away. Likewise, if he flats because he is a calling station donkey, the other guy will usually shove and we have the option to shove over the top charging him to draw.

However, I think 90% of the time SB dosent have a hand he can continue with here, either a small pair or broadways or whatever, since his action is simply call from the SB, then check at this point in time...

Depending on the person I might just push on this guy. If you aren't getting away from the hand on the turn, you are better off just taking it down on the flop with a push instead of giving him the opportunity to flat call (you said he was a donk) and catch and then push on you for the turn. Better to take down the 30 right there.

Level?

Sadly, I don't think it is.

I guess I just dont see the point of a raise in this position. If you are putting yourself in a spot where you are going to call all in either way, why give him the opportunity to come back over the top of you? AQ isn't exactly something where you want to call your chips off with. If you raise to 115 and then he calls, are you going to check fold on the turn? Are you going to push all in reguardless? If you are sitting on a top pair with no real draws, it seems in your best interest to try to take the pot down completely instead of being forced to call something if he does spike/hit anything.

Is my reasoning way off here? What are your guys' thoughts?

+1

First, you should read this.

This type of donk bet is typically, "I've got TP, but I don't want to give the FD a free card." Donks always assume that someone has the nut flush draw, even though the chances are pretty low on a random basis. If you call and the FD completes on the turn, he'll c/f. If you raise to say 80, there's $160 in the pot and he's only got to call $46. Nobody is folding TP in this situation getting nearly 4:1. Since he doesn't have any more anyway, he knows he doesn't have any FE.

The other issue is the SB. While he probably has nothing, you don't want to give him direct odds to call with any of his possible draws.

A few random thoughts:

1. Because MP bet into you, I'm guessing he does not have a set or two pair. You labeled him as someone who doesn't look like he knows what he is doing, so a 2p or better hand is almost certainly checking to you for the "sneaky" check-raise. ldo.

2. MP's money is getting in on the turn as he's already put half of his stack in play. And with A/Q on this board, you aren't folding to an extra $46 on the turn when that won't even be a half-pot bet. MP therefore becomes almost a non-factor because nothing he does will induce a fold from you.

3. The question is whether you want SB to stick around. If you raise and SB smooth calls or 4-bets, you're priced in no matter what thereafter. If you flat and SB raises to squeeze you out, are you folding? I'm guessing no. So, why raise here? A flat call allows you to see a turn and re-evaluate options if another diamond hits.

... the lack of a history with MP makes this more difficult, of course. Plus he's shortstacking which is just infuriating.

My first impression was to just call, and see what the SB does behind.

Folding is still an option he may exercise.

Raising is another option but the potential sizing of the raise vs. the stack sizes gives me concern. What are you going to raise it to? $90? And if the SB has any hand, he shoves overtop and now what?

Are you really going to call off your entire stack with TPGK against potentially 2 players, both of whom you could be way behind to?

I think Calling is OK for these reasons, see what SB does and go from there.

Shoving to fold people out here is horrible...

I want all of MP's money (that's why I'm raising now) and if the SB shoves, so be it as with an SPR of ~3 I'm committed anyway.