A3 and AQ are the same value here

That's only true of V never has AK here or if he never has QQ. I think both are possible, and AQ has more equity than A3 against a range of discounted AK, AA and QQ.

What does the min-raise actually do, to harm Mr. McNit? If he's bluffing, does it cause him to bluff more? If he's getting value, does it cause him to get less? Please answer THESE questions, they're not trick questions.

You seem to imply that the min-raise will help us on a subsequent street. But is this really a spot where we can do something sub-optimal now, because we can "make it up" later?

I don't hate calling the 3bet because it is small, but you have to be able to avoid losing too much when you flop top pair and are beat if you call. If I call in this spot, it's usually against a timid opponent who slows down on a scary board, so I don't get charged as much when I am behind and sometimes can bluff.

Flop is fine. On the turn, villain's range is usually polarized between slow-played hands that beat AK and scared hands that are drawing slim against AK. You don't want to raise against either.

I would fold pf.

I like the line if we were deeper, but given stacks I think the raise/fold line OTT is bad. Assuming V has AK in his pf 3! and flop checking range (and this would have to be the case for a turn raise to make sense) I think there is some chance that V looks at the stacks and realizes he is committed so he just shoves it in here himself w. AK.

I think I would check back OTF (to get value from KK), call OTT, mostly GII OTR.

Do you ever find a hero fold OTR here?

This COULD be a panic shove by KK. Tight guys will sometimes spazz feeling like they deserved the pot preflop. Following same logic, AK likely does the same thing here.

I don't get checking the flop.
nor do I get min raising the turn.

I think if he has AA or QQ(which we block) he may not shove the turn since he has the effective nuts. If he had AA, hes probably for sure smooth calling because he has all the good cards and would have to let you try and improve. If he has QQ he COULD shove since you could likely have an ace, BUT he might not want to scare out a weak ace.

I think you're min raise looked fishy and he shoved with KK

I can against a reg who never bluffs the river and would only bet hands that beat AK.

Sorry Badly is correct. Nitty McNit doesn't straddle. Not if you play with him six hours or six months.

It becomes important because if he isn't a nit then getting advice based on this will likely be wrong

Results:

I called and he had AA. I had a hard time deciding if I could include AK in his range or not, but at the table I decided yes. In hindsight, I think he only plays AA and QQ that way.

I almost folded PF. The only reason I called was because I had position, and my image in his opinion was that I was really tight. I thought I could use my position and image to push him out of scary boards. If he didn't flop top set, I could have represented it on some boards. I had seen him make laydowns to aggression from other players, and assumed he would not be willing to play for stacks without the nuts. Unfortunately...

Ok, maybe this player wasn't the nittiest player in the world. But nitty is the easiest way I could describe his play in order to get a range going for him.

Thanks a lot for the input guys! I think this was a pretty solid discussion, and my conclusion is that the biggest mistake was not folding pf.

I agree with pre-flop... scrolling though, I thought I was the only person who would peel.

Folding isn't bad, but getting nearly 3:1 in position with the second best suited ace and almost 25x left in stacks, I would call this pre-flop.

I also agree with flatting the turn.

And after flatting the turn, probably never folding the river.

Raising turn was very very bad. We are dead to AA/QQ so we want to minimize losses when he has them, and if he has AK (which we are hoping for), a turn raise lets him potentially fold it. He might even barrel again with AK if the river blanks.

River bet sizing would be key, but I think folding would be a fairly unusual outcome.

AsianNit, the read like the one you're opining on is a tough one. Re: combos, AA=1, QQ=3. So that's 4 combos.

There are 8 combos of AK.

Say he bets around 2/3 pot on the river. Question isn't whether he bets AK.

It's whether he bets even just like between 1 and 1.5 of the 8 combos.

I'm talking about the scared guys who sometimes check/call the river (and sometimes tank-call) with AQ because they are afraid I have QQ/A3/33.

Only 1 combo of QQ I believe.

Super nits never have anything but AA/KK here. In the 1/2 games I play, it's really rare that I see 3-bets at all, and probably can count on one hand how many times I've seen a super nit 3-bet and it not be exactly AA. These OMCs don't even have AKs here (its a drawing hand derp) and not QQ (you could have AA/KK/AK). This is why this is a fold pre-flop, we either lose a ton to AA or win nothing more from KK. As someone said earlier, you wants the SCs or pocket pairs against nits.

What is toughest is when you go hours with napkins and finally get a pretty looking hand like AQs in position and get 3-bet and get stubborn. But really, not just nits but generally speaking your typical 1/2 LPs just do not 3-bet without hands that crush AQ.

Aha, right.

So yeah, I mean, just a fractional combo of AK on the river.

I guess probably like 0.5 combos.

Yeah, almost never folding river after calling turn.

As described, fold pre. Turn and river discussion is detrimental, should never get there.

So this guy usually opens pots instead of just limping? Villain sounds more like a nitty TAG. A guy who is just a nit usually limps a higher percentage of the time and doesn't straddle.

Position is a thing but it isn't magic and it doesn't trump holding a range that crushes and dominates us. The nit can play it totally straightforward and it's still going to be very difficult to make money.

yes. the min raise helps.

if we flat the turn, we call 50 and are committed to calling any bet on the river up to 100ish,

so we flat the turn for 50 and call the river for 75, and we have lost 125.

or, we might flat the turn, and the click it back on the river to 150 for value, and lose even more.

but if we min raise the turn, and the nit comes back over the top, we muck it easy and only lose 100

if we min raise, and the nit still calls, we are now in control of the pot, and assuming the the nit checks it to us, we can either check behind or go for more (perceived) value.

if the nit flats the min raise, and then leads the turn, that is essentially a check raise and we can still muck the hand.

the key is that with two more streets of betting, and position, min raising against a nit, AND A NIT ONLY, gives us tons of information.

So I guess the answers to my ACTUAL questions are NO, the min-raise does not harm Mr. McNit one bit.

So it magically helps us while not doing anything to harm him.

have to agree here,if you really class him as a nit I wont be ranging him on AK just for the fact as others have said (it is a drawing hand lol).
is it frustrating getting a fairly decent hand and then having to fold you bet ya but you know what is worst than that stacking some guy you know will never get your money back unless it is a cooler.
The game I play at has 1 or 2 reg nits and I usually just flat out dont play when they raise just out of spite then they get upset when no-one calls them and they show AA/KK.
when you look back at this hand I am sure you can see they you are not really beating anything when he check raises all in.
Yeah it is a bit of a cooler but it was one you could get away from preflop and not get put into this situation.