Hi guys, this hand came up couple of days ago in a session and i feel like i might have missed some value in the hand... so i'm posting it for some advice. Thanks in adv.

H($1100~) - young asian TAG, won some big pots lately, havent shown many hands to be out of line so far.

V($400~) - young white loose/passive player who limp/calls alot pre, but havent seen him open pre that much yet. Have seen him check 2 streets with the nuts vs old guy and check raised the turn.

The hand:
V(UTG +1) raises to $15
everyone folds to hero in the BB with AK
Hero calls $15 (maybe 3bet? but i havent seen him open that much so i didnt think it was a good idea)

Flop:
K83
Hero checks
V bets $30
Hero calls (raise? wanted to keep his bluffs in his range here)

Turn:
Q
Hero checks
V bets $45
Hero calls (Somewhat didnt like this turn card so i didnt raise here...)

River:
5




Ok, so my question now is, should we check/call river? should we lead river like we missed a flush draw? should we have raised anywhere in the hand?

On the turn after V bets i feel like he at least have a Q, or a K, or better. Havent seen him double barrel that much ever on the table. Was check/calling 2 streets fine with the intention of check/calling the river again?

idk why you would be thinking about raising, let him continue to bet otherwise you just fold out his air/draws.

as played just ck/call, you would hate to get c/r'd on the river whether it's a bluff or a value hand that crushes you.

Yeah which is why i check/called 2 streets with the intention of check/calling river. Just wondering if this was the optimal line to take when you have AKs and OOP

Bet/fold the river. Not much risk of getting raised by a guy who's playing "passive".

Also a passive player is going to check back a lot of his medium strength stuff here. AQ would have called a bet. KJ would have called a bet. JJ would have called a bet. But I expect all of those hands to check behind if you check the river.

Agree with this. His turn bet is pretty weak, but you look weak, too, so he might take a stab at the river. Doubt he's calling with anything that we beat, so let him bet again.

if you're going to play Pre/flop/turn passively, you might as well play the river passively at first too

We can't get c/r'd. We act first.

This is actually what the villain should be thinking. That's why he'll check back JJ, AQ, or some QhXh that would have called a bet

^ raised*

he's a passive guy betting two streets. He cbet pot, then when the queen hit the turn he bet half pot.

His 7.5x UTG range from a guy who limp/calls alot does include AA, KK and QQ. We can lead out but that makes our hand look strong as well or we can bet/fold ~75. I dont think he has Qx or Kx tho I think he is stronger.

I don't know man. Passive players can see flush draws too. We called out of the blinds.

I think even a passive player can find two bullets here with 99-JJ, definitely with AQ. But in either case I'd expect him to check behind on the river with those hands and at least consider calling a bet from us.

AA/KK/QQ are all blocked somewhat, but if he bets with those hands, we're probably calling anyway, so what's the difference?

If he folds worse, he wasn't gonna bet it anyway. If he calls with worse, great. if he raises, its the same as check/calling.

If you think he's strong, that's even more of an argument for bet/folding. Check/calling is only preferable if he has alot of bluff potential.

so if you think his range is not as strong as I do, make a smallish blocker bet/fold on the river but something you know he won't raise with AK.

I dont think he's calling 99-JJ and AQ if we bet. He's calling AK min.

I don't get it.

If we think that he will call a river bet with 99-JJ and AQ, we should call on the turn, and bet/fold the river.

If we think that he will only call a river bet with AK or better, than we definitely definitely definitely need to raise on the turn and fold out what little equity 99-JJ and AQ still have. Reverse implied odds city right there.

no he's not calling 99-JJ and AQ on the river if we lead out.

we can bet/fold the river with a blocker sized bet (big enough that if villain has AK he won't riase) because if he raises, then we know we're smoked.

doubt he's raising you otr without a set or KQ. I do think he calls with KJ, AQ,KT, QJ, though. One option is to make a blocking bet to control the pot and get to showdown. If this guy raises you it's not creativity so you easily fold and save more than calling his river value bet. Most fish don't 3 barrel either so if he folds he prob wasn't firing a river bluff anyway. I lead the river with a small bet against this type of villain.

PF I prob raise but since you called your flop and turn line are fine. Small lead otr and fold to a raise. This guy is never bluff raising imo.

Not sure the bet has to be small. Pot has 180. I feel like if he's calling 75, he's calling 90. I might even go as big as 120 here.

If he's calling with AQ, it's because he believes we missed hearts. why not sell it.

but I think the whole point in the blocker bet is to keep the pot under control tho

Primary consideration is villain-dependent. Will he bet with a wider range than he will call on the river?

This doesn't sound like a villain who will fire again with a busted flush, or with AQ/KJ/JJ. Hell, it doesn't sound like a villain who will fire again with AK. So I like bet/folding small on this river. His betting sequence has been $15/30/45.

Bet $55-65, fold to a raise.

A blocker bet isn't necessarily meant for a call -- it's to control the pot. The whole point is to keep it on the small side.

Now, if you are betting for another reason and want to go big, that's fine, but what is your reason? You are folding to a raise, correct?

Why not bet silly small, like 15, to set up later post oak bluffs?

I never used the word "blocker", you guys did.

If you've kept up with my teachings here, you'd know I have an entirely different view of "blocking" bets. Blocking bets are for when the pot is BIG, and we have lots of equity vs villain's range, and the villain can get away with stealing lots of sklansky bucks from us by bluffing a ridiculously low percentage of the time.

Blocking bets are to block the value lost when you get bluffed. In other words, blocking bets are an alternative to check/folding. Here we're either bet/folding, or check/calling. SO the word "blocker" shouldn't even be in this thread.

I'm pretty sure I stated very clearly that I'm betting to get value from Villain's medium strength hands that would otherwise check behind on the river. Specifically I'm targeting 99-JJ, AQ, and possibly some KJ. And I'm ok with going big. Cause passive players at LLSNL will call. That's the secret sauce with this game. If you want to start crushing the game, bet bigger. Whatever you think you should bet on the river, add $30. The guy will call anyway. He's too stupid to keep his own money, don't let someone else get it before you do.

What's the score here Java? You're putting words in my mouth and asking questions I've already answered. Take a hint, I won't go out with you.

You never once mentioned why you were betting the river. You said bet/fold and that's about it except that for some reason you think a passive player is calling a big bet on the river with worse. Good luck with that. Bet/fold here should be a small blocker bet to get him to call with worse and if he raises, we know we are beat and can fold without risking a lot. This is how you make money against these guys.

Thank you for not going out with me -- that's been my wish all along.

And, it's amazing how you always pick on me, even though someone else has already said what upsets you before I have? (In this case, Playbig2000.) Can't handle the big boys, huh?

LOL, you're the one picking on me dear, trying to ride Playbig's coattails just to get some attention from me. Don't worry, there's a guy out there for you

I definitely mentioned why I'm betting the river. Please see posts #4, #7, and #11

We bet for value against worse hands. We bet because we believe those hands are likely to check behind on the river and get to showdown for free.

If we bet as a blocker...it's because we believe that villain's range is wide enough for value, but are afraid of folding a better hand to a bluff.

If check/fold is not in the conversation, then neither should blocking bets be.

NO, it isn't. At 1/2 people are either Calling stations or TAG grinders. Against both of these players you should bet big and get MAX VALUE. Neither is capable of raising as a bluff very often, if ever. That takes the "AG" out of the TAG's game. So all your'e left with is Tight players and calling stations. Tight players are tight. They aren't going to loosen up cause you gave them 4 to 1 odds instead of 2.5 to 1. So if they're calling 60, they're probably calling 90 or 120 too. And if they're folding for 90 dollars, they are probably folding for 90 cents too.

Same thing goes for calling stations. This one should be obvious. BET BET BET BET BET, and make it big. Every time you leave money on the table against a calling station with a weaker hand, they win.

So whichever of these archetype's we're up against, a $50-$60 bet is "playing not to lose"

i really dont see the point why anyone would be block betting here. we have the best hand here a ton. we'd be block betting with hands that dont want to call a 3rd barrel but have SDV, something like KT or TT or AQ. if we're betting here it should be for value, plain and simple.

i dont mind betting, i just think it looks fishy and good Vs will fold hands like JJ or AQ or KJ, bad ones may call but that is V dependant.

one of the strongest lines bad Vs take is check/call, check/call, lead big, because its usually a very good hand and because they afraid the V driving the action will give up and not bet again. hence why in my first post i suggested check/calling the river.

Equity Win Tie
MP2 35.85% 30.18% 5.67% 88+, AQs+, KJs+, AhJh, AhTh, AQo+, KQo
BB 64.15% 58.48% 5.67% AsKs

We're like...huge favorites here, against a pretty strong range. Why bet only 1/4 of the pot????