Just saw down at 1/2

Oldie guy raises to $6 utg (220ish behind)

Young chatty white drinking girl to my right calls ($180ish behind)

I raise to $26 in MP

Both of them call


Flop ($80): JT8r (1 club)
Oldie donks $25, Girl calls, Hero ??

Donk feels like weak top pair,without reads my go to would be to flat in position and see a turn,with lots of backdoor equity.

Yeah, can't really fold with such a great price but our overcard outs are often dirty. We have 4 clean outs to the nuts. I'd call and evaluate the turn. I don't think they fold much on this flop so shipping is awful.

Plus if oldie is donking small he will probably continue to bet small on turn and drunk white girl will give you a great price to call to river. You're basically guaranteed 2 streets for the price of one. I have no problem with an inexpensive call/call/fold line.

I only get worried if 1) old man significantly increases his bet sizing on the turn because that is OMC for slow-played overpair or set, or 2) drunk white girl starts to show increased interest on turn.

Oldie donking $25 into two players in an $80 pot, one of whom is (hero) in position who 3-bet pf is very strange indeed. I agree with the call/call/fold line under the assumption that strictly hitting your A or K might not be good.

Really, you're drawing on the turn to a J or any club to be willing to call potentially larger turn bets from oldie.

You've got position and equity. Call the cheap bet and gather more information on the turn. Their turn action will be telling and I think if a club spikes you can shove over old man if he bets small (like $50-60 into $150).

Lol for a minute I was confused as to why Johnny was posting advice on his own thread.

Back to strategy now...

Yeah, and I'd probably do some acting on the flop before I called, trying to communicate that I have an overpair but I'm scared they have a set...might help the turn go check/check.

Speaking of which, this happens a lot in my two regularish games, with the turn going check/check. What turns do we bet on (besides Q) if it does go c/c?

Lots of times a donk from weak V is bottom pair or TPWK. Flat...IP and two possible draws. A gutshot, backdoor clubs, and two overs.

Bet A or K, club, and obviously we could potentially check Q but I probably bet that too.

Got very confused by this post as assumed you were posting advice in your own thread.

Seems weak, but I call. We've got ace high. We don't have much fold equity believe it or not.

A and K outs may not be totally clean, but if you continue, are you ever looking for a reason to fold when the turn is an A?

Old guy raises UTG and flats our 3b, then donks JT8 flop... AJ is the bottom of his range.

Fold now. If stacks were deeper, we can justify a call with implied odds. Also, if deeper, having 3 to the flush means something. With effective stacks as they are, it means fairly little.

There may be merit to shoving flop, but I doubt you have sufficient fold equity. Calling is, imo, your worst option. I mean seriously, what's our flop flatting range when we 3b pre and face a donk? We are just piling with over pairs and sets, no?

^^^^ any club gives us additional equity, we've got a draw to the nuts and we've got position. Why not peel for cheap?

[QUOTE=ShowdownValue;47210342 AJ is the bottom of his range.

[/QUOTE]

Old guy open raising UTG and calling a substantial 3-bet. AJ possible but not all that likely. Folding is a mistake. Hero has position, Overs(possibly good)+GS+BD, likely passive V's in front, and a cheap turn card. See another street. Wouldn't be surprised if old man has AK also. Watch out if he accelerates.

Worst case scenario - Oldie has a set. If hero binks a Q on the turn he will get paid at least $300 by the time the hand is over, assuming he fades the redraw. Definitely worth spending the $25.

We flat, a club peels on the turn, old guy jams for ~pot bc the board is getting scarier. We are now not getting correct odds to call unless girl calls all in in front of us. Even then, we run the risk of her holding some of our outs.

And Fishwreck, You wouldn't be surprised if old guy holds AK? Seriously?! Not only do we block 7/16 combos, he also is almost never donking here with AK. So, spot him one of the least likely hands in his range, call bc we may be freerolling, and what? Bluff him off a chop? Sound strategy

Old guy is not jamming the turn. He raises pre for $6 in a 1/2 live game and donks small 1/3 PSB of $25 into $80 on the flop. He is clearly scared money probably ****ting his pants after getting 2 callers on the flop. He will most likely check the turn regardless of the card or bet small again (and probably fold to a jam).

Or maybe the turn puts up a 4-straight or maybe the board pairs, and we can get a free card or a bluffing opportunity. Flop is an easy call.

....What happened then!?

What about the girl? Turns that complete draws look good for her range.

The problem to me is that we are peeling with the hopes that a bluff card comes, but we are multi-way against unknowns.

Or, we peel and make the nuts on the turn with a Q, but that's actually one of the best cards for us to use as a bluff bc it not only brings a four-straight, but it also brings an overcard. It's great to BLUFF bc it hits our range, therefore it isn't a great card to VALUE BET.

Or we peel, the turn is a club and we could potentially face a large bet and get committed with incorrect odds/have to fold our equity.

When we have a list of not-so-great options, I tend to take the one with the least variance. Just my opinion.

Also, bluffing paired boards usually isn't a good idea

There's $75 in the pot after the rake. $74 if you're only going to toke the dealer a buck.
"Oldie Guy" bets $26 UTG on the flop. Drunk calls.

If V1 has QJ
Drunk has T9

Flop: JT8

You have 20.9% equity to see 1 card. You're getting 4.85:1 on your money, so I have to call.

Good discussion. I agree it's not as clear a spot as it seems and our over card outs must be discounted. Further, we don't get paid all the time on turn Q's since it puts 4 to a straight.

That said, the girl can make second best straights with 9x. Our over cards might be good. The lead villain may slow down / not bet the turn. With 4 outs to the nuts, we are around 11:1 to turn the nuts and are getting > 5:1 direct - that goes a long way towards giving us the equity we need if we are behind / our over cards aren't all good. And finally, we have position, which makes everything better - we get to see what V guy and girl do on the turn, we might get checked to on the turn, we do have the backdoor clubs, etc.

So it's a call but not a slam dunk spot.

By the way, I very much doubt the old guy is weak.

Not all smallish donk bets are made equal.

An older V raise/calling from UTG and then leading the flop is not often a middling hand imo. The flop is still a call, but I think that putting him on a weak range is probably a mistake. Weak hands are possible but his range also definitely includes more TT, JJ, QQ+ than the combinations would suggest. If V follows up with a larger bet on a turn A or K, we do have to consider folding. Not only are we sometimes only drawing to 4 out vs his strong flopped hands, but those of course also improve his weaker hands (AJ, KJ, AT, KT, etc), and another bet of greater size is a clear indication we have very little equity.

If our overcard outs are often dirty then our 4 outs to the nuts are often blocked. If I peel I'm doing so hoping to sometimes find an opening to take this pot away depending on turn action.

Alternatively just fold and hit on the drinking chick.