Loose/fishy 1/2 game where nobody folds

5 limpers, Hero raises to $22 in BB with AK, 4 callers

Flop ($110): J53
Hero ???

Everyone's $250-300 eff

Stack sizes are important.

This+ proper reads on our villains.

Somebody folded.

check/evaluate here. I hate bluffing into 4-way pots, and if you get called you have no idea whether to like any card (other than the As), as you could be behind a made flush or up against the As. If you had AsKc instead, I'm more likely to bet, because I know where I stand if a spade hits and I have one of the cards that is most likely to call my bet.

OP edited stack sizes in.

I don't see any play besides checking here 5 way, then evaluating when it gets back to us (depending on the action, the sizing, etc)

Chk fold

Check. We are drawing with little chance to take it down on a cbet here against 4 callers. I expect the hand does still have decent equity - so I'm willing to call a reasonable bet. If checked around I might try a delayed cbet.

I'd lean toward a x/jam but it depends on the bettor profile and the bet size obviously. It's thin though. Easy x/jam if we flip the suits in our hand.

Check. See what everyone else does. You can check-call, check-fold, or check-raise depending on the action. A free card is fine too. I'd shove with AsKx. I'm not eager to gii here blind against 4 villains.

Checked to laggy BTN (2/5 player) who bets $30.

Shoving should be +ev. We're gonna be in deep doodoo about 15% of the time. Don't like calling.

Yup. +1. Someone should bet a flush after the pfr checks. A 1/3 PSB from the button is super weak. You should have a ton of FE. You'll often have 9+ outs if the btn calls with something decent.

Shoving feels unnecessarily reckless to me. I expect you'll get looked up too often and when you are you are likely behind. I like a call, and if that brings along more callers - we're quite happy with that.

We'll take it down some of the time and often when we get one caller we'll have 50% equity.

How can we assume that someone isn't slowplaying the nut flush?

If he's a good player, he could be just roping everyone in with Axss knowing that people can't call bigger bets on this board.

I'll usually call a small bet in this sort of spot. This allows you to see how the other players react without committing too many chips, as it's quite possible someone at 1/2 might be trying to trap with a made flush. It's also possible the laggy player could have a flush or other hand that will call a shove.

Assuming no one raises, I would check the turn unimproved, check for showdown value if you hit an ace or king, bet for value if you hit the flush, and fold unimproved if you face another bet on the turn. If the turn checks through I'd be liable to bluff the river when I miss (especially if the laggy player is the only one left in the hand).

This line maximizes your chances of realizing your equity without putting your entire stack at risk, and gives you more information before you try to bluff. This is all dependent on the type of players you're facing though, as this line might not work well against better hand readers or players who bet/call aggressively on suited flops.

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Yep, some of the time we're gonna hang ourselves. I put chances of As with either another spade or a pair at very roughly 15% total. shove hardly mega juicy, just +ev

In a typical 1/2 game, perhaps it is marginally +EV to shove (but def high variance). But think about it from LAG btn... he's a 2/5 player with presumably some hand reading skills... What does he think we are representing with a our pre raise and flop C/R. Looks like we are repping AKss or AQss. Okay?

So if we have one of these hands - why would we c/r shove all in? why not simply call and see if we can draw others in... or click it back....

Did we get stack sizes yet?

Open shoving 100 bbs preflop from UTG with QQ is also +EV.

Some of the time we're gonna hang ourselves when someone wakes up with KK or AA, but we're ahead against 8 random hands.

Hardly mega juicy, just +EV.

Not sure if you're agreeing with my advice to shove or not. In the QQ case there are better options, here, I'd argue that shove is best option, although it is hard/impossible to quantify the call option.

Why is it necessary to have to "quantify" an option for it to be considered? What is the EV of raising 3x vs shoving with QQ against 8 random players yet to act in a 100 bb cash game? What about 4x? What about 6x? It's tough to quantify the EV of the different raise sizes, but shoving is +EV for sure.

My point is: Just because shoving here is +EV does not mean it is the most +EV play. We're here to discuss what's the most +EV play. I am questioning your justification for shoving, which seems to be "it makes the hand easier to play, and I know it's +EV so why not". It is the exact same reasoning people use in the QQ example. "It's difficult to play QQ multiway out of position. I don't know what to do when an Ace or King hits. So I'll just open shove pre to collect the blinds. I know it's +EV so why not.

I absolutely don't see us losing a lot of EV by checking here. We do not need to turn our hand into a bluff by shoving $280 into $110. We only committed 11 bbs so far. In a lot of LLSNL games the flop will just get checked around, and it's really not the end of the world to lose this pot after we check call flop and check fold turn (or check call twice, then check fold river, depending on the runout).

Who said that?

X/shove engages FE which is significant in this spot.

X/c allows all sorts of villain hands to realize their equity. A dry ace may x/shove which is a disaster compared to hero x/shove. Also, a brick turn could easily result in hero folding significant equity. Basically, chasing oop in a multi way pot with one out to the nuts is bleh.

I think the only naked ace that potentially shoves and forces us to fold a lot of equity is the As. Obviously that's not a great result for us.

On the other hand, there are significant downsides to shoving. To me a shove looks very much like a semi-bluff, and against four players I expect to get called fairly often. When we're called we'll be flipping the majority of the time (not a horrible result), but we'll also be drawing very thin some percentage of the time (nut flush, other flushes, sets, pairs + As, the odd slowplayed AA, etc.) Obviously fold equity is hard to quantify here, but I would feel a lot better about shoving if I was heads up.

I think a call here followed by a bluff attempt later in the hand when we miss looks stronger and likely generates more fold equity.

I'm still open to being convinced that a shove is the better play though. To be fair, I think the main downsides to my recommendation of a call are that we occasionally get pushed off a significant amount of equity, we forego the immediate fold equity of a shove (although we can still bluff later in the hand), and last but not least, we'll likely have trouble getting value from weaker flushes when a fourth spade hits.