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Old 08-19-2018, 01:28 PM   #1
momo_uk
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1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

I feel miserable when I misplay a hand somehow and hereís one from last night.. line check please

Drunk 1/2 Satty night, Hero opens $12 with AJcc UTG,

2 calls and MP whale ($225) doing the min3betting every hand makes it $25,

BTN*** ($95) who hasnít played a hand smooth-calls, folds back to Hero,

Hero calls, 2 others call.


FLOP ($125): A73r
Checks to MP who bets $40, BTN snapcalls, Hero folds, 2 others fold.

TURN ($205): X
MP whale bets $40 again, BTN calls his last $35.

RIVER ($275): X
MP shows Q7o, BTN shows A5s.



Questions:

1) I knew I was ahead of MP whale but considering old guy on BTN hadnít played a hand preflop, isnít he supposed to have a lot of AK or AQ here? I was surprised to see A5s. Should I just consider this as an outlier and not stress over the fold? Or could I have deduced BTN being weaker than I thought given he didnít shove pre or post? I ruled out JJ type hands from his range postflop.

2) If drunk MP whale is doing the min3betting every hand, is there a case for making a thin 4b pre with AJs? Calling pre really put me in a terrible position postflop but I donít know how I can fold given that price, and how I can 4b after a tight BTN cold-calls.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:42 PM   #2
Aggarwalcharu50
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

If you put button on AK/AQ. shouldn't you fold pre?
Action came back to you pre. Button is short comparatively, mostly gonna go all in on flop.

Are you folding everything except flopped flush or two pairs?

Last edited by Aggarwalcharu50; 08-19-2018 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:54 PM   #3
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

Super tight button’s PF call in combination with his flop call make this a close spot.

Maybe slightly err on shoveling it in with whale’s dead money in the middle.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:56 PM   #4
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggarwalcharu50 View Post
If you put button on AK/AQ. shouldn't you fold pre?
Action came back to you pre. Button is short comparatively, mostly gonna go all in on flop.

Are you folding everything except flopped flush or two pairs?

1) Iím not the last caller pre, there are two other callers behind me.

2) Even if BTN turns his cards over and shows me AK/AQ preflop, I need to call $13 in a pot thatís going to be $112 considering the other 2 callers behind are calling as well. Never folding.

3) Moreover, I never said I put the BTN on AK/AQ preflop. His preflop range should be something like 99-JJ/AQ+ imo, maybe even tighter. Itís his postflop snapcall that allows us to condense that range to AQ+ and rule out 99-JJ, so folding pre is out of question.

4) I didnít call pre to flop two pair or a flush. If MP whale bets and BTN folds, I was going to call him down. BTNís snapcall changes everything.
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:57 PM   #5
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

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Originally Posted by Heroball View Post

Maybe slightly err on shoveling it in with whaleís dead money in the middle.

Shovel pre or post?
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:00 PM   #6
Heroball
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

Post, preferably. I don’t mind either tho, really. Depends how loose whale’s 4-bet calling range is.

The two calls between you and whale are likely behind AJs and depending on stack sizes you have good fold equity against their low PPs that are ahead by shoving . Whale is almost definitely behind. The only issue is if the short stack has AQ/AK (but with all the dead money and maybe whale’s overcall of your shove), it’s still not a terrible spot and I’m discounting AK as that’s likely a shove from all but the tightest short rocks.
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:37 PM   #7
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

Uh 4bet pre dude and why the hell are you ever folding the flop.
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:37 PM   #8
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

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Originally Posted by Heroball View Post
Post, preferably

I think checkraising postflop is an overplay, there are 2 other tight callers too between me and whale sitting on $200 stacks (forgot to mention their stacks in OP).

But even if there were no callers behind and I was HU with whale, Iím happy to let him just keep firing into me with his super wide range rather than give him any excuse to fold.
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:38 PM   #9
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

Why are we flatting this 3!. Whale has high min 4!% and shorty just called. If short stack has AQ/AK hes shoving imo. We are way ahead of whales range and slightly ahead flipping vs. Cold callers range here. I 4! To 100$ or fold here. If whale 5! Shoves it's a gross spot but we call it off.
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:39 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Uh 4bet pre dude and why the hell are you ever folding the flop.

Explain, dude.
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:43 PM   #11
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

Just how long has he been folding for you to not 4-bet pre and not continue flop getting 5:1?
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:44 PM   #12
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
Explain, dude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
2 calls and MP whale ($225) doing the min3betting every hand makes it $25
/thread
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:47 PM   #13
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

H9w many hands has the button been folding? If it's an orbit, 4bet pre. If its 4+ orbits probably just fold pre.

If he's just been normal old man passive sorta tight then 4bet pre.
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:59 PM   #14
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Uh 4bet pre dude and why the hell are you ever folding the flop.
I agree. You made top pair and a decent kicker. This was a definite call.

Preflop if you knew that the MP raises or 3 bets every hand, either check intending to reraise or if you did as played, 4 bet enough to make the button think twice about seeing the flop.
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:06 PM   #15
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

4 betting is solid here but if you really think button is that tight then depending on whales post flop tendencies flat is fine. Button is so short though that we really can’t be folding this flop. Our reverse implied odds against AQ/AK aren’t that significant, especially with the whale punting.
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:12 PM   #16
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

Grunching … sorry if repeating other posts.

4b/call pre given your range advantage. Do you really think the 47 bbs BTN is flatting AQ+ pre?

As played, not folding given stack sizes.
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:24 PM   #17
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

BTN is completely irrelevant to the hand. You need 29% to stack off vs. BTN if you 4bet and he calls. Unless his range is exactly AA you have >30% vs. every other possible hand.

For future reference, don't let some guy with 47 BB's at a 1/2 game affect your decision making.
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:29 PM   #18
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

I would just jam it in pre.

Ap i ship the flop SPR less than1 vs BTN and when whale could literally have anything here
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Old 08-19-2018, 06:10 PM   #19
Homey D. Clown
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

Nothing "thin" about 4bet/gii here obviously. Basically everything johnnyBuz says. This is atrocious.
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Old 08-19-2018, 10:19 PM   #20
momo_uk
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Ap i ship the flop SPR less than1 vs BTN and when whale could literally have anything here

Donít we want to flat postflop though and let whale keep stabbing with his Q7o though?
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:23 AM   #21
Minatorr
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
Don’t we want to flat postflop though and let whale keep stabbing with his Q7o though?
Id rather end the pot preflop and scoop 30+ BB rather than take a 4-5way flop with AJs

Plus w.e whale is bluffing with preflop has decent equity vs your exact hand and being IP he may overrealize equity
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:25 PM   #22
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Id rather end the pot preflop and scoop 30+ BB rather than take a 4-5way flop with AJs

Plus w.e whale is bluffing with preflop has decent equity vs your exact hand and being IP he may overrealize equity


Flop is so dry, how does his holding have decent equity vs me postflop?
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:39 PM   #23
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
Flop is so dry, how does his holding have decent equity vs me postflop?
I meant more in general, wrt when you asked isnt it better to flat to let him spew with his Q7o type hands post rather than 4b or jam. When you take a flop vs his entire range of hands his hands IP will overrealize equity and you could easily get bluffed off the best hand being OOP and whiffed (underrealizing equity as well). Plus w/ btn in the hand he wont continue betting with 7x and you overcalling, you barely have any money left in pot of SPR of 1.5?ish (less than one vs BTN) so yeah i just jam

Even if you give him like 50% 3b range vs AJs, he still has a lot of equity vs your AJs and being IP he’s going to get more free cards and stab a lot when you whiff, putting you in tough spots as well. Even if you know he bluffs a lot post it’s hard to continue on a lot of flops where you dont have a pair, FD, or overs + FD. I can check Pokerstove in a bit to see equities AJs vs whale 3b range


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.800% 35.11% 01.69% 1462219056 70258144.00 { 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T5s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, A2o+, K4o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 98o }
Hand 1: 63.200% 61.51% 01.69% 2561587984 70258144.00 { AJs }

This was top 52% hands (obv his actual range may differ), but pretty clearly even with AJs we aren't doing that well vs a 50%+ 3b range and we have to consider that we are going to get bluffed a decent amount postflop and/or not realize our full equity.

Last edited by Minatorr; 08-20-2018 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:41 PM   #24
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Re: 1/2: AJs really sticky spot pre and post

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Uh 4bet pre dude and why the hell are you ever folding the flop.
this
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