Wouldn't you say that your poker experience is unbalanced?

If so, why do you think that your non-math oriented advices based on your unbalanced experience work in a general setting?

Sorry, but the correct way of a well played hand is to raise on the turn with one card to come if you suspect the other dude trying to draw. You deny his IO on the turn and not building a big pot on the flop. On the flop you keep the pot small and if the draw didn't come on the turn card you bet so he cannot call with +EV. There is no draw on the turn that has a +EV if you bet the correct amount. Not even the straight-flush with 15 outs cannot get into the +EV with one card to come. If the draw has got the card on the turn then you got to judge for yourself if the dude was indeed on that draw and play accordingly. You can fold and let him have a small pot. So, you lose a small pot, not a big deal.

The other day I had a flopped set and there was a dude on the draw. He called the flop bet and a brick come on the turn. He was with a straight-flush draw (15 outs, so he figures ..lol..lol..) I bet 1.5x pot and he move all-in for over $3000 (it was a 5-10 game at the V). I called and he missed his 13 clean outs because two of his flush cards would have paired the board. So, as you can see, even with a big draw there it's impossible to have a +EV draw on the turn against a made hand.


AK

instant classic!

In other words, you call the flop bet because he could be on a draw, but you're not exactly sure what the draw is?

And if a card that comes in on turn that could possibly hit his draw, which I guess could be any , any 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, T, and if he bets, you judge whether he hit his draw. If you don't think he hit his draw, then you raise turn?

What is the correct amount and how do you determine it?

How do you make that judgment? Is there a general guideline that you use?

This is the strategy employed by the older nit regs here in AC to. What I can say is it works to some degree because their all still around while tons of the younger agggro's come and go.

But this is far from the best. Really I make a ton of money off these guys because they fold to much. Their content to sit back and wait for a nuttish hand. Meanwhile I'm playing poker. If your not profiting off the guys you play with daily/weekly your doing yourself a huge disservice.

I'm not going to go into a long winded reply, but if your goal is to not go broke then, fold all day, flop a monster against a tourist and hope to god your one big hand holds up. Fine, but it goes with out question that this approach to the game is awful. Your never going to crush the game. Your game is not going to improve, and you'll always be head and shoulders below the better players in the game. Further more your only playing against some of the players in the game. Your only getting action from unknowns, while the regs/semi regs are robbing you blind(and still getting plenty if not more action from the unknowns do to image) Thinking about leaving all that money on the table makes me cringe.

Sorry to derail thread but where do you play patchohare? I'm thinking about heading up to the Borg on Monday/Tuesday.. would be cool to meet a fellow 2p2 err

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On the turn with one card to come if you bet 1.5x pot he's getting 1.66:1 on the money but he's got 13 outs with a straight-flush let's say, so he's 26% to make it. That is 4:1 for him of not making. If he calls he's getting big -EV.

Here is a link on YouTube where a made hand is against a draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMlb_sz6Esk



1.5x pot on the turn.


If before the flop you see 4 or more dudes coming for the flop and the flop puts a potential draw, you must take into consideration a possible flush draw if two cards are the same suit. Against a single opponent the probability of him being on a draw are reduced but against a bunch of duds seeing the flop one could be easily on that draw.

All this theory is based on the fact you have a made hand of TPTK or T2P. If you have a flopped set then don't be worry about the possible draw. You got 10 outs while a flush-draw has got only 7 clean outs. Actually you got 39 cards while he's got only 7 cards to make his hand. You don't have to make anything because you already flopped the set while he's got nothing so far.

Here you have on YouTube a real cool pro playing against a big hot fish. The fish is trying to draw to a gut-shot (4 outs on the flop) when the pot was over-bet. See what happen...lol...lol...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mplB5KKOoa4

And here is Daniel Negreanu with the correct way to play AK. See this video and learn if you want to make money with AK. Serious, you'll be enjoying a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC1FaJR9RvU

Or playing KK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GVMYJ0urTs

Or this is the best of Daniel Negreanu how to trow an "legal angle" against a tight player and take the pot away from him. It's all a big mind game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ4O8cyfQGk

AK

What are you even talking about?

I asked you how you would know whether he hits his draw on turn, and you are responding by telling me how much to bet on turn?


Ok...

In other words, you are dead set on villain being on a draw because of whatever reason, and your bet size is targeting ONLY his draws.

I agree that if there are multiple opponents that show interest on a flop with flush draw, one of them is likely on the flush draw.

So let me get this straight. You would overbet to try to discourage draws because you cannot win if they hit their draws, and you would slowplay because you can still win even if they hit their draws?


Same thing can be said when we have a pair, any pair.

God bless you for obviously running good in your entire poker career.

Well, I really am running great here in Vegas. How else could I survive over 25 years of playing poker for living.

AK

Not doubting that for one second. I am sure there are certain things that you do well, but understanding the game isn't one of them.

Great convo, guys. I'd agree with those saying this is an easy fold.

I'd err on the side of caution when fishy players lead out after calling a raise on the previous round. I'd rather save my money for a better opportunity.

OP,

While your preflop raise wasn't great, the biggest mistake was bloating the pot so much on the flop. You have a very marginal hand but you have position on a weak player, so best thing to do here is to manipulate the pot and keep it nice and small. That way you only lose or win a little in a marginal situation, but you can nicely profit if an A or a J drops down and your opponent can't get away with a second best hand.

In this case you bloated the pot to the extent where you couldn't get away with a second best hand.

As for the Octavian conversation going on here, it's easy for you guys to pile onto him by using the standard ploy of just upping the strategy argument one level to everything he says. I've seen that a lot on these boards over the years. But the thing is, against most opponents, what he's saying is very valuable advice. The super strategy stuff is great against similar opponents like ourselves, but who wants to play against those guys? This hand is a classic case of the basics - don't bloat a pot on the flop with a marginal hand, and you can bring in all the pokerstove analysis you want, but at the end of the day the simple rules should be followed first. That's really all that needed to be said on this hand, apart from raise more preflop.

Did you notice villain lead 5 into 18?

Raising for value is super standard and not bloating the pot.

I think the flop raise is fine but when villain shoved pot sized into you on the turn, it's time to let go of the hand..

You're usually looking at 2p+ once the turn action occurs, with a small chance of goofy stupid stuff.. but you'll be able to see the stupid shenanigans later on if you pay attention

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I also noticed the repop to $22.


I respectfully disagree, although you may be right that it is super standard. Our hand on this board is marginal and very prone to becoming awful on a bad Turn card of which there are quite a few. So I like a nice smooth call of villian's little $5 bet. That is known as keeping the pot small.

Now to the Turn. If the Turn improves villian's hand he is most probably going to play coy and then check, hoping for a check raise. Unless my hand is improved then I'm going to check behind and have a look at the River. This will cause him to pop a vein where he will go all in letting me get away from my hand or allowing me to call if I get a card I really like.

If on the Turn he comes at me hard with a big bet then I can easily get away from the hand if I so choose as the pot, once again, is small.

Aargh, this thread has really gone off the rails.

Octavian, are you also AlwaysTilting? Really, your "you kid's and your fancy math" stuff is kind of irrelevant to the hand. Also refering to "the" way to play any hand is just silliness. There is more than one way to love a woman, and as long as she has the shakes afterward, you did your job...

adsman, though I agree (and was literally the first to say it) that turn is a snap fold, the flop raise is definitely good. Saying that we should be pot controlling the hell out of TPTK on this wet board is just super results oriented thinking. Tiny donks are almost always either draws trying to set a price or "I hit a bit of this, let's see if the has the 'fold to any bet' box checked." Hell, I would be raising here with air most of the time, as FE is huge in this situation.

Perhaps he is purposely avoiding to connect the dots to keep the goods to himself, but there's really not a single thing he said that isn't some one-rule-fits-all guidelines.

If you think poker can be dumb down to a list of what to do in what scenarios, then what Octavian said makes a lot of sense.

People tiny donk all the time because they don't know the first thing about sizing their bet to the pot. Which means that their tiny donks could be anything. From his bet on this flop I'm thinking that he might have a piece of it, but probably not much, and there's a good chance I'm ahead. But, and it's a big but here, this is not a great board and the turn card could drastically effect my hand strength.

The reason the flop raise is bad here is because a turn donk puts us in a tough situation, and I play poker in such a way that I can avoid those as much as possible. With regards to fold equity, if my read of the situation is correct then I want to keep this guy in the hand. Why make him go away when he keeps giving me his money with a second best hand out of position? Don't get me wrong though; with a nice dry board I could well punish him on the flop, but in this situation I don't like it.

I think that this is a really interesting hand. The big hands play themselves for the most part, but this type of marginal hand is where I see too many players bleed money away.

Tough how?

In other words, you trade optimal spots for easier decision? Nothing wrong with that, just different cup of tea for some of us.

You're assuming that he's never calling with worse, and that he will always barrel. We don't have read to support that.

Wouldn't his calling range be much narrower on a dry flop?

I really cannot pin-point what I do well but one thing that I'm sure of is that I do get payed off on my big hands.

AK

Sure I have rules what to do in specific scenarios. That's why I can manage to make consistent money. I know that in some situations I let a small pot go even that I suspect I may have the best hand at the moment. If I am in a situation where I see the pot growing and I that AK with a Ace or King flop so I got TPTK even that I suspect I may have the best hand I let the hand go instead participating on building a big pot. Especially when I see that a dude trying to take the lead away and by doing so I either have to call or raise him back and build a big pot or I let my hand go in the muck and avoid playing a big pot with a mediocre hand.

AK

I'm not "AlwayTilting" but I know the dude that use that screen name in the past. He is posting here on 2+2 under a different name now and he's a Las Vegas local pro that grinds a good living at NL tables. Matter of fact, I learned from him some "semi-legal" angles that are sure money in your pocket that confuse the opponent when you got a big hand and want a call. All those situations occur maybe couple times per day. If you add to all this couple times when you make some big hands and big draws in multi way pots where you to get called, you can see how all LV pros make a very conformable living here where we have 24/7 NL poker going on.

Of course you have to play a lot of hours. I for myself put 8 or more hours per every day and on average I have 240/month or even more. If I win only 7bb/hour on average, you can see that even if I let small pots go I can still make serious money.

Ak with TPTK gets into the muck in some situations. There is no other way. Even KK see the muck some times after the flop.

See this for AK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC1FaJR9RvU

and this for KK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GVMYJ0urTs
AK

Ya hey, thanks for your usual "add to nothing," "everything I do make sense because I win in poker," and "if it doesn't in your world, it does in Vegas" pointless posts.

Are you trolling or not?

These posts you make are almost exactly this:

What constitutes trolling a strat thread?

1. Intentionally bad advice

You offer absolutely zero logical backing to your so-called advice, then you rant about your silly extreme and biased locale as some sort of supporting evidence, and finally you end it all with random youtube videos.

You are so unbelievably bad, why are you even here?

Oh wait, aren't you the one to suggest if you have TPTK to bet 1.5x the pot with draws on the board to price opponents out of draws, and slowplay if you have better than TPTK?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...4&postcount=32

God, you are just so bad!

So he can brag about how he earns $15/hr clicking buttons and grinding full-time in Vegas?

It certainly does sound like an enchanted existence.