V1 (SB) (350) - Middle age guy, had played tight up to this point. Played strong hands fast. Not much history to this point.

V2 (EP) (700) - Very competent TAG player. Had been seemingly trying to get involved in pots with me often over course of last hour or so when he started getting deeper.

Hero (CO) (1000ish) - had been playing tight up to this point, but had basically been slapped in the face with the deck for a span of about an hour. Showed down many premium hands

Hero (AA)

Pre-Flop
4 Limps to Hero, V2 1st limper.

Hero raises to 17. V1 and V2 both call, everyone else folds.

Pot ~ 59

Flop 10 8 5 - rainbow

Checks to hero who c-bets 35. SB check raises to 90, V2 folds.

Hero?

I call. I doubt he's semi-bluffing but I can't immediately give him credit for a set or two pair based on your description. OESDs are out there but hard to give him credit for that if he's just a typical 1/2 villain.

Since we have no read that V is spewy, raising probably raises out only hands we beat, so I'm just calling.

If the guy bombs the turn, you can think about folding then, especially if it's an overcard to the board. If he checks to you on the turn, it's read-dependent but I'm probably betting.

I think a bigger flop bet would be ok. I am calling Villains check raise with plans to call every bet here on out.. or if checked to, bet yourself.

Basically, we are calling, not re-raising, because we want to keep his range wide with all of those Tx hands and want him to believe those hands have value. He may be ahead with T8 or a set sometimes, but most of his range we beat so I am continuing with the hand.

Why do you think this guy would c/r a wide range? Tbh, I'd fold this deep with no history of him c/r light, since I wouldn't want call large leads ott and otr since we have a crappy SPR for one pair, but I can see calling once to evaluate turn as well.

Most opponents will give off the strength of their hand ott.

Agree with more otf.

Turn: K

Villain initially counts out a bet of about 150 and then just sticks it in.

Hero?

* I should say, hero called flop c/r

I would rather 3-bet flop myself than call flop-fold to a turn bet....Basically, if I am calling flop I better be ahead of his range and I am buckling up to call every street assuming blank cards. Otherwise, if the check raise means that strong of a range, just fold now.

(edit note: this was in response to fogo's question and specific to flop action)

Wow, tough spot... his line looks kind of FOS. Are you sure this player is competent? That is a huge overbet. That K on the turn should have hit your range... what is villain doing - counting on a call? Why not pace himself then? I guess I could see KT/T8 getting excited.. but really, I might look this guy up.

(in before "this is why setmining against AA is so profitable ")
..or he spewed with QJ

I could spoil the thread...I probably shouldn't

... woops - I had V1/V2 and stacks mixed up. This is the V1 with $350 - I missed that before.

I mucked turn FWIW - he showed, but I can't figure out this spoiler thing.

+1. Have had enlightening discussions with cAmmAndo about this lately.

Basically, if you're ahead of his range, then 3-bet the flop because you want to put him to a decision rather than call and get put to a decision on the turn.

Are you committing to the hand? I don't call the raise on the flop with the intention of ever folding.

If I'm going to fold to a big turn bet (which seems to be coming) I'm better off folding to the flop raise.

And I generally don't fold AA on boards like this. You flopped a set on me? NH, sir. Unless they are super obvious NITs who are only raising me with sets and play their hands so face-up.

[QUOTE=

And I generally don't fold AA on boards like this. You flopped a set on me? NH, sir. Unless they are super obvious NITs who are only raising me with sets and play their hands so face-up.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this

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Chip - I came pretty close to folding flop, in hindsight, I think you are right and I should have folded flop. I guess I thought he may shut down on turn with hands I beat - which also in hindsight, is probably wrong.

I didn't think he was shoving turn with worse and I kicked myself for calling flop and folded turn. Also, by way of further response, I perceived this player as being nittish enough to pretty much only be c/r flop with sets (he played straightforward enough that I expect to get 3 bet by KK, QQ and probably JJ).

I agree with this

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results?

Also got stack sizes confused.

There's no chance a tight middle aged man is calling a 3b with worse here.

Reason you can call flop and evaluate turn is bc most opponents will dictate the strength of their hand based on their sizing. If they bomb turn and play a fairly straight forward game, you can expect to be behind.

Not saying its ideal in this situation, but just saying you don't have to call flop with the plan to call turn and river.

Also some guys will raise to see where they r at and then if scare cards come (k obv bad for them if they have a10... Ok well not really but they arent very good!) they shut down.

I folded turn and he flipped up 55 - sorry, don't know how to work spoiler - someone can tell me and that would be sweet.

I wanted to clarify here. When very deep against laggy villains or guys who are very aggressive and have bluffs / semi bluffs in their range I prefer to 3bet them right away when ahead of their range because when they are semibluffing I feel it's better to force them to a position to make a second mistake. Usually I have committed to the hand so if they spaz shove I'm calling even super deep against this type of player.

If I flat it is essentially a free card since they have already put their bet in and depending on turns its quite possible they will be able to make no further mistakes in the hand either by Chk/folding bricks or shoving when they hit or improve equity.

There is a certain meta game benefit to this aggression as well.

Vs a lot of TAGs or nittier ABC villains, this deep, with less bluffs/semi bluffs in their range I'm more inclined to believe they may in fact have what they're representing and perhaps not be ahead of their range.

Chk raises OTF are frequently going to be 2p so if we're behind we may have counterfeit outs and when we are not behind we can keep their TP hands in when they think we have AK that missed. Against these villains we will often learn more OTT and can avoid pot comitment so call / re-evaluate is legitimate... ESP due to being very deep.

Given this villain description I think I lean toward the later line.

Edit:/ just realized I too had stack sizes wrong. I thought this was the deeper villain. Yeah kind of gross. A range for this villain who just called PF and is c/r this flop its pretty much sets, JJ or QQ right? Rarely is this ATs. Assuming he 3b his AA and KK usually.

I'm never folding flop for $55 more. I think we can still fold turn correctly as you did versus this villain. Against some other villains with wider ranges we might be correct to get it in.

He would 3 bet QQ-AA, JJ he may or may not 3 bet, my first inclination is that he does 3-bet JJ from SB to late position open... JJ that was the only hand I really thought he could have that I beat. Still don't know why I called flop.

And against this particular opponent it is pretty much NEVER A10.

That may sound silly, but I imagine if you were sitting at the table and listening to/watching the guy you'd know what I mean.

Sorry, what is the point of 3 betting this flop? Allow villain to play perfectly?

Ahh I see Cam's addition, which makes a little more sense than just hurr durr 3 betting to make the hand easy.

I know what you mean.

I just see some guys who will flat QQ or JJ and wait for no A no K and then play it like the nuts.

Sounds like you had solid reads and played the hand fine. I don't think flatting the $55 was bad OTF it's not like it was half of effective stacks and we need solid evidence were beat to lay AA down IMO.

yeah i was trying to clarify what chip was eluding to which was a bit different situation. I wasn't advocating 3b v this villain in this spot.

I like a flat on the flop, and generally not looking to fold bricks, but I would fold a K turn because he shuts down with value hands we beat a lot on that turn.