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Old 07-23-2017, 08:27 PM   #1
DK Barrel
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1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

SB $1000 - Young male. Been at the table a couple of orbits. Is glued to his phone. Did see him 3b preflop and cbet flop while still browsing on his phone, only putting it down and focusing 100% after getting called and the turn was dealt. Seems to be tight aggressive, but not especially nitty.

Hero CO covers

3 limps. Hero raises $15 w/ A Q SB 3bets $65. Hero calls.

Flop ($130) A Q 6
SB checks, Hero bets $75, SB calls

Turn ($280) J
SB bets $150, Hero?



Also anyone ever 4betting preflop? I considered it but didn't know how light V could be 3betting, if he ever 3bets light.
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:46 PM   #2
QuadJ
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

If he seems tight aggressive I'm giving up AQo the first time he 3 bets out of the SB. I want some read on his actual range before playing AQo to a 3 bet.

As played I like the flop bet when villain checks. On the turn you are flying blind. You are either way ahead or way behind and no idea which. I would find a fold on the turn without a good read because AA/QQ/JJ should make up a good portion of his 3 betting range.
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Old 07-23-2017, 10:59 PM   #3
ImAllInNow
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

Fold pre. I think AQs would be the bottom of my continuing range to that raise size. I suppose I could get behind a 4-bet/fold to $170 or so as this is the top of our folding range.

As played, call turn and re-evaluate river. Probably folding to a diamond, K, or T river and calling all other ones.
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:20 AM   #4
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

Yeah fold pre. 3bets out of the SB in a spot like this are typically legit. Postflop I have absolutely no clue what he has and am just going to call him down, betting if he checks river.
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:51 AM   #5
BackDoorFlush
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImAllInNow View Post
As played, call turn and re-evaluate river. Probably folding to a diamond, K, or T river and calling all other ones.
This.
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Old 07-24-2017, 09:15 AM   #6
Avaritia
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

Fold pre, $90 otf, call turn.

If a diamond or ten hits river and he leads, fold.

If a blank hits river and he leads, probably call.

If a king hits river and he checks, consider turning your hand into a bluff.
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Old 07-24-2017, 11:25 AM   #7
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

Call turn is the only option. Usually always just calling pre in this spot. Calling down on blanks of reasonable bet size
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Old 07-24-2017, 11:38 AM   #8
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

fold to the 3bet since we don't know if he's light (and in that case we have an option to 4bet/f or still let it go, even if I knew his range is wide I would still 4bet).

call turn and boat up or check back river. big river bets are probably straights or flushes, he's prob even checking top set.
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:39 PM   #9
DK Barrel
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

I'm surprised folding pre is so popular, I figured calling was automatic. What's our calling range if we fold AQ? (I'd fold AJo though)

I can get behind folding exploitatively folding a lot of hands to 3bets to most 1/2 players, but I think it's better to have a balanced calling range vs a player who we have no reason yet to believe can't be 3betting light. Even with that large sizing, his 3b is automatically profitable if I fold ~71% of the time.

Flop I didn't think too hard about sizing but probably should. I don't think he is calling anything for $75 that he is folding for $90. Come to think of it I'm not sure he has a check/fold range. Maybe like 77-99 he decided to spaz with, doesn't want to bluff, and realizes he's now in a bad spot deep+oop. We should probably bet larger on the flop with everything.

I think his range to check/call flop is all underpairs and weak Ax he wants to pot control. Maybe even AK.

I thought turn was interesting because despite the scary card he shouldn't ever have flushes/straights. The only better hands he should have are sets (probably 5 combos? Not sure 66 is in there.) But it's still too thin to raise because the only worse hand I'd expect to call is AJ (I think it'd be a bad call, but I'd still expect it). Or pair+diamond. But that assumes he 3bets those hands too.
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Old 07-24-2017, 09:06 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

It probably varies from place to place but where I play, there's very little threebetting and I assume people's threebet range is AK, QQ+ and maybe JJ until proven otherwise. Unless they're an OMC or some other variety of nit in which case I assume it's KK+.
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Old 07-24-2017, 10:17 PM   #11
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

He has a lot of hands that have the K that can take this line. Definitely call turn. Curious to see river action though.
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Old 07-25-2017, 02:21 AM   #12
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

Do not 4 bet preflop. Calling is fine.

As played when he donks the turn $150 min raise him to $300.... He'll call with AKd and also AJ.

He rarely has a flush here.

You maximize the many many times you are ahead......
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:04 AM   #13
DK Barrel
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

Results

H calls turn

River ($580) 7 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line:
V bets $175, H calls

V shows A 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line: T 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line:

River call is obvious I think, great odds, few value combos, almost nothing worse can call a raise.

I thought turn might have been debatable between call and raise. If we are shallower we rip it in?

Preflop responses surprised me, I didn't even consider folding.

I would not have thought to turn my hand into a bluff on a river K if v checked but that makes a lot of sense and is probably super profitable.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:52 AM   #14
Avaritia
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

DK, the reason you can make, and I hate this ****ing word, an exploitable fold pre is that live 3betting ranges are very value heavy (as they should be)

So a normal range would look like:

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
46,232,208 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
QQ+,AK,JhJs,JcJd,JhJd73.51% 33,411,0241,145,825
AcQh26.49% 11,675,3591,145,825

I just input half of the JJ combos bc as ChrisV said people dont 3 bet these all the time.

So as you can see its just a range that will either have you in a rio spot alot or wont be putting in much money in bad when you hit an Ace.

Vs aggressive 3betting ranges where villains can have suited broadways or a suited connector combo it is more of a call:

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
89,039,808 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
TT+,AK,AQ,KxQx,9xTx61.58% 46,824,94316,011,735
AsQd38.42% 26,203,13016,011,735

And vs very aggressive villains with weaker aces its definitely a call:

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
135,272,016 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
TT+,AK,AQ,AJ,AT,Ax5x,KxQx,9xTx50.05% 58,377,21918,651,480
AcQh49.95% 58,243,31718,651,480

So now you can take a note and know to not immediately fold AQ to this kids 3bet bc we've seen his range.

Though, a word of caution, people see ATo showdown here and start auto assuming thats how wide his range was. But we dont know that for sure. Maybe he was bored, maybe he won a big pot with AT last night, maybe he was trying to impress the cocktail waitress. Most folks in live poker have no idea what their 3bet ranges are, and sort of just click buttons on the fly.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:53 AM   #15
Dubey
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

I think as a population read, folding would be best preflop. Most people just don't 3-bet light.

But given villain description, I definitely like calling pre. Rest of hand is good, though I wouldn't hate a small raise on the turn.
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Old 07-26-2017, 12:26 PM   #16
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Re: 1/2 500bb deep CO vs SB, 3b, top 2, strange line

I fold pre

I r/f turn to 350
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