Kinda curious as to see where people are on this.

1/2 at a casino, weekend, ~1am

Hero (600/HJ) - 30s WG, been at table for 45 min, winning image

V1 (300/SB) - 50s WG, drunk, terrible, called off stack (~150) on TT9 w/ 94s in raised pot, spiked river 9 to scoop from QQ. Definitely a spot at the table.

V2 (200/EP) - 30s WG, no info, just sat down

V3 (250/MP) - 20s WG, no info, just sat down

V4 (300/ BTN) - 30s WG, loser w QQ described above, seems tight, but also only been here for 5-10 minutes

Table was 5 handed and we just got several players. Table has multiple terrible fish. Even the non terrible fish are calling ridiculously. Multiple hands raised to 15-20 going multiway

V2 and V3 limp (there are a few folds in there from others).
H picks up a value hand and raises to 20
All Vs call

5 way to the flop

Flop (95): Qd7c4s
V1 donks 20
V2 and V3 fold
H?


I'd say my value range here is probably {~88+, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo, 87s+}, I don't expect to get all folds pre, so this is tighter than my normal HJ open range because I'm more value heavy. Thoughts?

What are we raising, what are we calling/floating, what are we folding to this flop donk?

I'd raise TPGK plus against the described V. I don't think he has nothing.

7x or better is a call. I'd peel one with AK

Flatting all of it for 20 HU IP. The worst hands turn top/second pair/bway gutter too often to fold.

We aren't deep enough to chase gutters and some of our hands will be counterfeit

I could see peeling with AJ/AT/KJ maybe but I'm not peeling with T9

For 20, overs to middle pair with bdfd/sd might be a peel, even this shallow - My main motivation for quoting you was that I don't think I have a single hand that raises flop.

If this guy can stack off with 94 on TT9 we shouldn't be flatting these tiny bets

I would raise to 50 with TPGK/TPTK. In this situation I want to put some pressure on BTN and get him to fold gutters, weak pairs and other garbage that might peal one and improve. It also gives hero some warning if BTN calls that BTN might be beating hero. It's a small raise because I don't want to force V1 out. With these stacks I'm willing to commit vs V1. With a set I'm willing to flat and risk BTN calling. It's harder for villain to improve to a hand that beats hero and hero may be able to stack both if BTN hits two pair. Any QX or 7X I'm calling one and see what happens. If BTN comes along in this situation it becomes a real judgement call. It is easy to be beating V1's range but not BTN's range and hero may get squeezed between them. With 2 face cards that can also make a flush draw it depends on how I'm feeling. What I think V1 will do on the turn matters a lot. If he will take stupid stabs and then give up a lot then I like calling. If he will get aggro after betting flop then I probably just go ahead and fold.

That's the other reason to raise, to fold out weak V4 holdings.

I'm not suggesting we make a crazy big raise, I'm saying we should bleed him a little with a small raise here

Well, V is clearly a mega station and will call raises with very weak stuff, so raising KK+, AQ, KQ is probably a good idea. I'd prob just call with QQ since it so easily can raise later and it blocks V having top pair hands by a lot.

I'd call with all AT-AJ hands that have BDFD, all AK, 88-JJ, KJ with BDFD, 87. Folding everything else. His LOL sizing is a pretty good opportunity to peel more than normal.

OP, why did you raise 10x pre?

Ugh, just realized we aren't the BTN. Okay, so I'd prob all A hi except AK on top of what I listed in my last post. Still like calling with 87, 99-JJ though.

Because people are calling with worse for the same amount. Multiple hands at the table were raised to 20 over a few limpers and ended up 4 or 5 ways. If anything, I could have went bigger, and I'm not a proponent of raising huge pre, but I felt this table warranted it.

What would you raise to pre in this situation?

Isn't this another reason to flat and not raise TPGK+? I'm just not playing the protection game this early in any hand.

Even a drunk terrible player isn't betting into five players with complete garbage. The presence of two remaining players in position means it's tougher to float. I'd probably raise with Qx/KK+/sets, call with JJ-88, and suited (d/c/s) Ax premiums. I'd fold the rest and find a better spot.

grunch:
Probably not raising 87s-JTs here to $20.
If I raise, I think that I'm going to raise bigger given table dynamics and give some 'dem Jacks' speech when they all fold.
The rest of your value range seems fine.

As for post flop, I'm raising all KQ+, any two pair, and 65s (that I shouldn't have, but if I did anyway) and of course all sets and overpairs.

Well, I'd probably make one of two adjustments:

1) I'd raise smaller, say around $12 in order to maintain somewhat deeper effective stacks

or

2) I'd raise a tighter range than you listed. Since we will be creating a tiny spr frequently, we need to be comfortable getting our stack all in on damn near any flop/turn texture.

I understand the notion that we want to make bad players put in more money with weaker ranges (that's kinda the whole idea after all), but we need to be clever about which streets to attack and how we go about exploiting. My point is that preflop equities run more closely together than on later streets (for the most part), so why are we trying to create situations where the pot inflates to the point where our range advantage can't properly tax our opponent as range values become more divided?

Smaller preflop raises create more postflop situations in which we can make large bets relative to the pot and effective stacks since our range will have a much more significant equity advantage.

You've obviously never played at this room.

Calling with AK + any pair or better, which is most of your range here so I don't get the problem.

Probably not raising this bet because board is so dry and pot is already big so I'll just give him some room.

Not a fan of your PF range given circumstances, would rather raise KJo QJo KTs QTs than 78s etc vs described players.

Personally, I expect a Q here a lot. Probably a weak Q though


I agree


This is an interesting raise size and not something I considered. It essentially is a 40%psb cbet to the BTN and it gives the donk great odds to call


For the range I gave pre, this was generally my thinking also

I think we also need to consider that button would be calling 20 to win 140 in the pot. He can call really wide here profitably

I'd certainly like to given the action.

The range was theoretical. I didn't play at the table long enough to see something like JTs-87s in this spot. Honestly, I was looking to see what people thought of the open range also.

Spoiler: I had a better hand here

Far points. I guess it is worth noting that I actually had AKss here, so the raise was also based on having a top tier hand. Granted, if there are any hands that I probably am ok seeing multiway, AKs is probably very high on the list, so raising lower was an option.

+1 as you obv know where I was

Some other gems:

1st hand I sit down
Limped pot: flop Q9xccc
2 Vs: Bet/raise/raise/shove/call for 100 bb
V1 AcXx
V2 JxTc
V1 wins with Ahigh, V2 bemoans how he missed so many outs

H in SB with ATo, like 6 limpers, I complete (obv not raising based on table description)
Flop A55, checks to BTN(V2 from 1st hand), bets, I call, someone else does.
Turn A, checks to BTN, bets, only I call
River K, I check, he bets, I stupidly only call (cause I'm a pussy), V2 flips over QQ is surprised when I say I had a boat (granted, I guess he could have AK in his range here)

So like I said above, I had A♠️K♠️ for 2 overs +BDFD

I flat and V4 flats

Turn is X♦️ (I forget what, low card)

V1 bets 85 into 160
Hero folds
V4 calls

River is a K♣️
V1 checks, V4 bets, V1 calls
V1 Q9s
V4 A♦️K♦️ scoops

I was just curious as to what others though based on our range rather than the actual holding, which I think was pretty straight forward