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Old 12-15-2020, 07:09 PM   #1
sixsevenoff
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1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

I shockingly didn't find anything about how we adjust our opening ranges based off of BTN straddles/straddles in which we are OOP (i.e. HJ straddles and we are UTG.)

I play in a 1/2/5 game that has a horrid format - whoever won the last hand has the straddle (i.e. LJ wins the first hand of the night, he has to straddle +2 next hand.) Obviously, it'd be much better if it were 1/2/5 with UTG straddling.

NOTE: the format of the straddle is that the first person to act is to the left of the straddle and straddle is last to act - for example HJ has $5 straddle, CO is first to act and folds, then BTN folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG limps, +1 limps, +2 raises to $20, LJ folds, now HJ acts.

I feel like I'm playing way too tight when I'm OOP, and I was wondering if any of you have rules of thumb you use for these games. I.e. open two positions to the right (BTN straddle, we're in HJ, but we open our +2 range because of the dynamics.)

I saw a guy suggest that we should actually be opening wider than we normally would the closer we get to the straddle because we have less people to get through. I had never thought of this before. He said when we're in CO and it's folded to us and there's a BTN straddle, we should open close to a SB GTO opening range because we only have one person to get through. I assume that this is incorrect because we have zero money invested, but I also can't be sure as I had never thought about this before. I would think we open tighter because we have to play the whole hand OOP and have no money invested?
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Old 12-15-2020, 07:28 PM   #2
kimoser22
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

Haven't looked at solves, they are out there, but I would assume that you still would be a little tighter than SB as (like you mentioned) you have no money invested, so maybe a BTN+ range (50-55%). Pretty much what you should be playing from the BTN with big fish in the blinds in a normal 2-blind setup, IMO.
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Old 12-15-2020, 08:23 PM   #3
browni3141
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

We call this type of straddle “the rock.”

Why’s it horrid? I think it’s fun. People can’t just play their standard memorized ranges anymore, so there’s a higher element of skill. It should be pretty obvious at least that UTG rfi vs UTG+1 straddle is basically the same spot as CO rfi vs BU straddle. It’s not so easy to judge which hands are profitable, though. I think your friend is giving good advice. You’re also right that you should be a bit tighter than SB vs BB, and there’s less incentive to limp instead of raise.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the rock is worth less than it’s chip value, because posting it is a disadvantage.
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Old 12-15-2020, 08:35 PM   #4
sixsevenoff
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

Thank you for the responses.

Browni - the set up is horrid because it completely throws the game off! I guess the only reason I would think we'd open tighter than CO in a non straddle/rock game UTG when +1 has the straddle because +1 has money invested and people defend even wider with money invested v. CO v BTN when BTN has nothing invested.
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Old 12-15-2020, 10:10 PM   #5
browni3141
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

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Thank you for the responses.

Browni - the set up is horrid because it completely throws the game off! I guess the only reason I would think we'd open tighter than CO in a non straddle/rock game UTG when +1 has the straddle because +1 has money invested and people defend even wider with money invested v. CO v BTN when BTN has nothing invested.
Throwing the game off is why I like it!

I was comparing CO vs BU straddle and UTG vs +1 straddle, saying itís the same spot in the rock game when folded to. I guess my point is that your absolute position doesnít matter as much as your position relative to the straddle.
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Old 12-15-2020, 11:38 PM   #6
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

I play a 1/2/10 big O game with the same concept.
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Old 12-16-2020, 12:29 AM   #7
sixsevenoff
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

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Throwing the game off is why I like it!

I was comparing CO vs BU straddle and UTG vs +1 straddle, saying itís the same spot in the rock game when folded to. I guess my point is that your absolute position doesnít matter as much as your position relative to the straddle.
Interesting, yeah...So I'm curious what your BTN opening range would look like with a CO straddle? I assume it's gotta be wider than your UTG, because we get absolute position post.
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Old 12-16-2020, 10:54 AM   #8
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

Pre-pandemic I played in a game like this. As always with poker, it depends on stacks and other player tendencies. Some of the guys I play against defend their rock no matter what and others play face up. I probably tighten up a bit if I'm going to be out of position (CO vs BTN), but if I'm against a nit, if it's folded to me, I widen my range because they fold so often.

I love the rock games for many reasons: it plays bigger, loose players seem to loosen up, and tight player seem to tighten up. I tend to base my play more on the other players than position when there is a rock.
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Old 12-16-2020, 11:35 PM   #9
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

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Interesting, yeah...So I'm curious what your BTN opening range would look like with a CO straddle? I assume it's gotta be wider than your UTG, because we get absolute position post.
The BTN is still the button. The reason we often can't play speculative crap from EP is not as much about the fact that other players haven't acted and more about the likelihood we will be playing the rest of the hand OOP. If live low stakes was tougher and there were more 3bets/4bets then relative position would be far more important. However, most low stakes games are pretty soft so we should be able to raise a wide range profitably from the button when we are first to act. The fact that we are the BTN also means we can more profitably call 3bets as well.
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Old 12-16-2020, 11:38 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

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I love the rock games for many reasons: it plays bigger, loose players seem to loosen up, and tight player seem to tighten up. I tend to base my play more on the other players than position when there is a rock.
3 blind game accomplishes the same thing without encouraging bad loose passives to put more money in when they have good position (3 blind games actually encourage them to put more money in from OOP). If I was a bad loose passive and I wanted better results then I'd be all for the rock game or better yet the button straddle.
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Old 12-17-2020, 03:16 AM   #11
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

UTG straddle > rock >>> btn straddle
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Old 12-17-2020, 11:52 AM   #12
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

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3 blind game accomplishes the same thing without encouraging bad loose passives to put more money in when they have good position (3 blind games actually encourage them to put more money in from OOP). If I was a bad loose passive and I wanted better results then I'd be all for the rock game or better yet the button straddle.
If my games don't have a rock, they have a Mississippi straddle. I'll play anything that gets more money on the table. The nitty/passive/bad players at my tables have no idea how to adjust.
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Old 12-17-2020, 05:54 PM   #13
sixsevenoff
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

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Originally Posted by Dream Crusher View Post
The BTN is still the button. The reason we often can't play speculative crap from EP is not as much about the fact that other players haven't acted and more about the likelihood we will be playing the rest of the hand OOP. If live low stakes was tougher and there were more 3bets/4bets then relative position would be far more important. However, most low stakes games are pretty soft so we should be able to raise a wide range profitably from the button when we are first to act. The fact that we are the BTN also means we can more profitably call 3bets as well.
Right, this is why I'm confused about why we should be opening so wide from the CO with a BTN straddle...We all know that with money invested people way over call raises compared to when they have no money invested, even if we're 6x'ing it. If we get any action at all we will have to play OOP.
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Old 12-18-2020, 01:23 AM   #14
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

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Right, this is why I'm confused about why we should be opening so wide from the CO with a BTN straddle...We all know that with money invested people way over call raises compared to when they have no money invested, even if we're 6x'ing it. If we get any action at all we will have to play OOP.
Theyíre supposed to defend pretty wide unless you size huge.

You just play hands that are comfortable getting action from a wide range OOP. Q2s, A6o, 95s, 65o etc fare decently against very wide ranges even OOP, and you do get a steal through sometimes. You only have to get through a single random hand. Being IP doesnít automatically make hands like Q5o easy to play if they choose to.

I donít know what my exact range is in any of these spots. I donít know if Iíd open even the hands I listed above, but if not they are not far from the bottom of my opening range.
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Old 12-18-2020, 01:49 PM   #15
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Re: 1/2/5 -Rules of Thumb for BTN Straddle/Straddles in Which we are OOP?

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
Theyíre supposed to defend pretty wide unless you size huge.

You just play hands that are comfortable getting action from a wide range OOP. Q2s, A6o, 95s, 65o etc fare decently against very wide ranges even OOP, and you do get a steal through sometimes. You only have to get through a single random hand. Being IP doesnít automatically make hands like Q5o easy to play if they choose to.

I donít know what my exact range is in any of these spots. I donít know if Iíd open even the hands I listed above, but if not they are not far from the bottom of my opening range.
Got it, this makes sense. So you're looking to c bet most flops as well if we don't take it down pre?
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