1/2/UTG straddle 5, 6-handed

Hero ($600, UTG1, nitty image) raises $15 with AdQs, 3 callers:

CO ($150), SB ($165) and UTG ($120).

Flop ($60): Jh Td 4d
SB checks, UTG donks $25, Hero calls, CO calls, SB calls

Turn ($160): Kd
SB shoves $125, UTG snap-shoves his last $80, Hero ???

Both players are very loose preflop but ABC postflop. I would have snapcalled against one person, but facing two shoves, is this still a call?

Should I have folded flop?

Don't think I could ever fold this w/ the Ad.

I probably would have folded flop with these stack sizes and two people behind me and just 3 clean outs to the nuts. Deeper I think it'd be a good spot to float.

I think it's really close. If we were against one player and could put him on either a straight or a flush, we'd have 30% equity, making the call pretty exactly breakeven. So folding and calling would have the same EV.

But there's some chance SB shoved with a set or 2P, figuring it was all going in anyway. That helps. But we're against two hands with a third yet to act, which hurts.

On the third hand, stacks are short and UTG might be snap shoving fairly wide -- any set, maybe 2P, maybe even a Q-hi flush draw.

Net/net, I don't think it matters much what we do. EV of calling is probably right around 0.

If the CO were deep, I think I'd be much more inclined to fold. While he's not often going to overshove if he does we're really going to hate life.

If you think SB and UTG are tight and won't stick it all in, even this short, without at least a straight, then I think we can start finding a fold.

I'd strongly consider jamming the flop. The donk lead of less than half pot looks weak, stacks are short, and we have decent equity when called.

Agree with Case2 probably close to EV neutral but I call even in that case as there are benefits when you win like tilting other players and making your stack deeper. There aren't really any ancillary benefits to folding.

I would raise the donk bet. He has TPWK or a FD like 90% of the time.

Given how short the stacks are compared to the pot they may be willing to commit with worse hands than we think. Like JT KJ AQ probably committing OTT. Plus all sets. I do think the donk bettor probably has a flush but there are other possible hands.

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Why do we want to raise flop with 2 others behind though?

Results:

Hero called.

SB had Q9o.

UTG had J7dd.


These fun players own my soul sometimes. They try to suss out the situation with their donk bets and play accordingly based on my action. In this case, J7dd was never folding obv.

sounds like a great game. this is a good example of how getting a straddle going causes people to make some big mistakes for 10% of their stacks pre.

I don't think I'm ever folding (or raising) this Flop as described.

1) Are you looking at this as 62/40BB or 25/16BB?
2) Are you ahead of SB 'more often' than UTG? So hedge your main pot odds by winning the side?

3) Sounds like there will be better spots at this table .. keep your big stack in tact?
4) How many of your flush outs are already dead between these players?

For me, in my games, I love to show this fold. It has so many 'game play' implications depending on how the River goes. If a set/2 pair somehow wins they think they got one over on you and overplay a hand later. If a flush wins then they are pissed you didn't pay them off ... and overplay a hand later. Win the war, not every battle!

I don't want to see a 'wild card' get a triple up, so keep your stack and snap them off in another hand. GL

Im raising or folding the flop. Calling is the worst option.

Although I do agree with your other points, I don’t think showing them this fold is a very wise option. Basically, it will make them very alert of you everytime you put money in a pot in the future, so unless you are planning to change gears and start bluffing away every spot later, I think it’s a bad idea to show them you’re good enough to fold this hand. They’ll just never pay off your value bets without strong hands.

And why is that?

As has been said, raise or fold flop. We're 4 ways with a donk bet and 2 others left to act (saying left to act because most of the time SB is just going to mindlessly check to the raiser). We have a gutshot with overcards on a wet board. Our overcards may not be good when we call, and our gutshot is weakened by the presence of the flush draw.

AP, probably fold. We're not getting the right price on a straight up flush draw which, given action, is what we need to make to win the hand ($125 into $365 equates to about 3:1, if someone has a flush we're only drawing to 7 outs).

Call flop is so >>>> raising flop that I honestly can't understand why people want to raise. What worse hands are calling? What better hands are folding? You really want to target Tx here?

I know right, raising flop is just dumb when we don’t even know what the 2 others behind us are holding and the short stack donkbettor probably won’t fold his weak TP or FD for $80 more anyway. It’s either a fold or call, and given the price and caliber of players, I decided to peel. Probably better to fold more than call since we’re not that deep.

Grunch - I think this is a reasonable way to play the hand but probably not optimal. V’s stack sizes make everything awkward after the straddle. Ideally I think H would have sizes up preflop after the $5 straddle to $22-27. Basically I want to bet enough here that table doesn’t expect the straddle will be calling w/ ATC because I don’t want to start an IO limp fest. With a large PF raise I can go 50/50 on a cbet. As played i’m OK with reraise or flat. Turn is standard call knowing you’re going to need the backdoor fairly often.

I have a little problem with the raise size pre-flop. $15 is standard w/o the straddle. I can't believe anyone folded in an average game. J7s is the nuts to most of these guys.

Now, if you were expecting to get it heads up or for everyone to fold for $15, fine, but I would have gone at least $20, but probably $25.

Your game may vary greatly, though. (I can't see a flop in a 1/3 game for less than $12 and usually it's $15 - $18.)

If you think raising is dumb due to the reason you gave (and you could be right) then fold the flop. You hit your gutshot (which was like 12-1 against) and dont know what to do. If there was no FD on the flop I might call that small flop lead but in general calling bets sucks in poker unless you are trapping or have really good odds to draw. Drawing to a gutshot and overs sucks most times especially when you have people behind you who could very easily raise. Betting with a gutshot and overs is much better than calling with it.

Sure, but that's basically always the case with any poker hand.

In the spot we have, we're getting a good price to peel. Yes there's players behind us who could raise, but I'm not going to lose sleep if I have to fold occasionally to that line, because LLSNL villains just don't play aggro enough for it to happen frequently. Villains' ranges are so insanely wide on this board that I'm perfectly happy to peel with 3 absolute nut cards, a fourth gutshot being OK to hit since we hold the Ad redraw, and an Ace being fine too since we block KQ. More often than not an offsuit Q gives us the best hand too since AK is unlikely given preflop action.

If this were a near PSB donk bet I would fold, but at this price I'm peeling.