My main game indefinitely is a 1/2/5 live home game. I would say based off of 40 hours of play that around 90% of the population is either loose passive or tight passive. I haven't really ran in to good players, but there are a few players that are more aggro.

The game has kinda ****ed with my head though, because I'm used to 1/2 and 2/5 live with no rock. If you don't know what a rock is, it's a straddle chip in this case that's worth $5. What happens is whoever won the previous pot wins the rock, and has to straddle the chip. If the person that won the last pot is going to be in the blinds the next hand, then the stakes are just 1/2. For example, let's say the rock is UTG, and HJ opens the pot for $20 and everyone folds. Now, HJ is in LJ the next hand and has to straddle the rock.

Here are some spots that I wasn't sure what the right play was - keep in mind that as previously mentioned, the pool is generally very passive. All spots are 9 handed. Rake is 10%, capped at $10. No rake pre flop. Hero has a TAG image.


Hand one: $500 effective with CO, $250 effective with +1. Tight passive has the rock in CO, tight passive open limps +1, and hero has Q J in LJ. This spot has come up several times. I don't feel like folding is an option, but I could be wrong? We're playing a pot out of position a majority of the time when we raise $25-$30. Is limping here the best play for that reason? Do you mind sharing your raising and limping range here?


Hand two: $400 effective with UTG, $150 effective with +2, $300 effective with CO, $800 effective with SB. Loose passive has rock UTG, but adds $2, so the straddle is for $7. Tight passive open limps +2 (I've never seen him limp-3 bet), loose passive CO calls, loose passive SB calls. Hero has A J in BB. Hero? If I were to be closing the action, I feel like this is a super straightforward complete, and I still feel that way since I don't expect UTG to be raising often. What do you think? What is your calling and raising range here?

Hand three: $600 effective with HJ. Rock is in HJ, and he added a dollar, so the straddle is for $6. HJ is loose passive. Hero has 6 5 in CO. Hero? This is a super straightforward open for me in the CO in a non rock game. I'm so lost in these spots as to what range we're supposed to be opening here. What would your opening range look like here?

Hand four: $300 effective with LJ, $700 effective with CO. Loose passive straddles LJ, loose passive open limps CO, hero has A T OTB. Hero? In a game with no rock, and a loose passive open limping CO, I'm raising ATo with no hesitation. Again, I'm lost here as to what I'm supposed to be raising with these weird dynamics. Hero? What is your raising and limping range here?

Hand five: $1k effective with BTN. Rock is OTB. BTN is a LAG, and one of the only aggressive players in the pool. He is a genuine LAG (has a lot of bluff raises post, 3 bets a wide range pre.) Action is folded to hero in LJ with K Q. Again, in a standard 2/5 game, no rock, no straddle, I'm opening KQo with no hesitation from LJ. How much does this change with the given dynamics? Hero? What is your raising range here?

Very rarely are you going to get good responses to a thread with five different hands in it. You'll get few responses, and they'll usually be pretty cursory comments. E.g.:

H1: Overlimp. With two T/P players you're not ahead of their limping range, so if you raise it will only be to take initiative. Since they're tight and passive, you can float them PF and steal OTF a lot.

H2: Now you are ahead of limping ranges, and AJo plays poorly multi-way and OOP. Raise.

H3: Do you act first? If so, easy fold.

H4: Raise for the same reasons as H2, though position is better.

H5: Ech. Deep OOP against a tricky LAG with KQo, is a tough spot. Kindy nitty, but I might just fold here.

I seriously doubt anyone is going to take the time to break down their ranges and reasonings for them for all five hands. Just too much to ask about so many spots in one thread, imo.

I've posted a few of these before and have gotten few responses, but they generally tend to be pretty solid.

As for hand two, in a game with no straddle, no rock, are you raising AJo when you're in the SB and two people limp to you? I'm not. In that spot I'm raising 99+, AQo+, KJs+, and ATs+. I don't like hands like this one going OOP.

For hand three I do act first. What are you raising here then? I struggle a lot in the spot where I'm first to act pre, but am in late position. Are you doing your UTG opening range then?

H2: Yes, I'm usually raising AJo in a limped pot from the SB in a limped pot (I realize you saw SB because UTG has the rock, but there were still 3 limpers in front, not 2). It's the bottom of my raising range and depends on who limped, but generally yes.

H3: Prolly somewhere around my UTG+2 range.

The rock is effectively increasing the blinds in most hands. Looking at the stack sizes you mention they are all over the place and the $5 blind is going to force you to adjust on a hand by hand basis.

Hand 1: Your effectively 50BB against the +1 villain. QJs isn't strong enough to isolate with stacks that short. I would limp if there isn't somebody aggro behind, see a cheap flop and steal it occasionally on the flop/turn while waiting to hit the flop.

Hand 2: Raise or fold. After that many limpers I fold unless I think I have above average FE against the crowd. Don't complete, AJo plays badly multiway OOP. AJs/AQo would be a raise.

Hand 3: Fold is the default. If there a couple of limps then limp behind. If HJ is weak then consider a bluff raise occasionally. His having the rock after you makes it expensive so don't do it regularly.

Hand 4: Better situation then hand 2. Fewer limpers and they are both loose/passive so you are clearly ahead of their ranges. Add in a better position post flop and raise would be standard here. ATo isn't a big hand though and you will have to be careful if you end up heads up against LJ to avoid committing yourself to the pot.

Hand 5: Raise. KQo is too good to give up from that position. I would make it $20 knowing full well villain will only fold total garbage. OOP against an aggro player plan to play it fairly carefully post flop no matter what.

I was confused in the OP about who acts when pre. That made it a little harder to digest the hands. It sounds like action pre always starts with the person to the rock's left, yes?

Generally, we need to be folding more in LP and the blinds than usual, ldo, and we can play a few more hands in EP when the rock is to our left. Also, the value of winning small pots is considerably lower relative to our opening size, since we'll be required to straddle the next hand, so I'd drop some of my marginal steals & iso opens. Stack sizes are a big issue for LP play. We have to weigh the benefits of being in position postflop against the additional preflop uncertainty from people who haven't acted, and we can't really do that without a general sense of the effective stacks with everyone still in the hand.

In this game, it sounds like raises are less frequent than usual, so I'm happily limping Hand 1.

Hand 2 seems like a pretty clear raise; there's so much dead money out there, and stacks are shallow enough with a few of the limpers so that we can gladly gii with top pair against them if it comes up.

Folding Hand 3 since we're first to act, could maybe be convinced otherwise if we're deep with several Vs and want to have a much wider range in LP.

Hand 4 still feels like a clear raise at a passive table.

Hand 5 is the one I'm least sure about. We'd be deep OOP against an aggro V, so better reads on him would help. As is, I'm torn between a nitty fold vs. opening & playing cautiously post if we end up HU with BTN.

We just cut it off at slightly different points then. I can't imagine you're raising ATo in a limped pot from SB.

So for H3 65s isn't a ridiculous open then based on what you said...I open it in LJ/HJ in almost every game.

Exactly. I treat this as a 1/2/5 game, even though the third blind moves around. I buy in for $500, a few other people buy in for $500, occasionally someone buys in for $1k plus, but the median buy in, I would say is $250. I've wondered how much this affects my play.

Hand one:I have been limping this spot a lot, but I was really curious about the rake. As mentioned, the rake is 10% up to $10. I've been wondering if it's too high to be making regular over limps with our worst suited broadways, medium to small pocket pairs, and suited connectors/gappers (from late position when implied odds are there.)

Hand two: Good point. I really haven't put enough thought into how poorly AJo plays post mw...I like the fold. I assume you'd be raising/folding KQo here, too? This also begs the question - what if the blinds were 1/2, UTG raised to $7 and the action played out as it did - isn't AJo too strong to be folding, closing the action?

Hand three: That makes sense. I'm most curious in these spots about what range I should be raising. What would your default open range be in LP spots when LP has the rock?


I apologize for the confusion. Yes, the action always starts to the left of the rock/straddle.

Hand two: Does it not bother you that we're likely to be playing a pot OOP, with pretty shallow stacks? I've been go to limping this spot, and occasionally raising when the rock doesn't defend very liberally. I've been wondering a lot about if the rake is too high to just be limping here though.

Hand three: Same question I've posed to other posters - what range are you raising here? This is what I've wondered about the most...When we're in LP and LP has the rock/straddle - I'm not sure what to open here. My coach suggested 15% of hands, but he also said there's no theory behind it, and that's just what he'd personally do.

KQo is very much like AJo. They are both weird hands in that they are stronger against better opponents and plays worse in weak games. Against tougher opponents the hands that dominate AJo/KQo are raising hands in almost every situation but in weak games people will limp/call with AK/AQ/JJ preflop. AJo/KQo are not real profitable OOP to begin with and it doesn't take much of that to kill their EV.

As for the other question, in a straight 1/2 game who knows? $7 UTG is such a stupid bet it depends entirely on evaluating what other people are doing. If they are limping lots of random garbage because pot odds look good then a raise is fine. If they are limping good hands because they don't generally raise anything other then AA/KK preflop then playing AJo OOP can be risky. If I get the feeling somebody is laying a trap hoping for a raise then I'm getting out of the way.

Buy in for 200-250. Wait for aces, kings, queens or AK, jam it over a $35 open and some callers, get called by worse, fade, double up, boom profit. But IMO, you want to seriously tighten up your range in this game, play hands that can flop the nuts get it in and try to hold and ride the variance lol.... You're gonna need a big ass bankroll for this game... Value bet thinner, stack off a little lighter....

grunch

Preface with acknowledging that the rake is really high. We have to play a much tighter and more aggressive strategy for this reason IMO with an emphasis on winning preflop.

Hand One: Raise to their pain point. $40. Take down the dead money. I would fold QTs I think. $5 rake I open it, but not for $10. Not sure that I have any limps vs players that won't play back enough.

Hand Two: $55 to go. Again, you have to take a lot of these down pre to make up for the monster rake.

Hand Three: Fold. I would open 77+, AJo+ ATs+ KQs. QJs if i was stuck

Hand Four: I might actually limp here. So many players left to act, possiblity of being dominated is high. Fold and Limp are probably similar EV. Raise is worst...? Not sure about this one.

Hand Five: This hand is too good to fold. KJo+ every suited broadway, pairs down to 55, suited connectors down to 76s.

Overall, this game is hard to beat. The stacks look shallow, and the rake is very high. Have to play tight and get creative preflop to take them down without paying too much rake.

edit: Now that i've read the thread, y'all underestimate the effect of rake on a winrate, especially when applied to small and limped pots. UmphLove's strategy is probably closer to best than the rest of us.

Millnoc, are you assuming no flop, no drop? That's far from universal.

OP, PF rake?

I'm not interested in playing a 50 BB strategy. The games do tend to be more shallow, but there are usually 2-3 people besides me that are at least 100BB deep to start. The game gets deep by the end of the night.

I've definitely tightened up a ton since I started playing in it, as I didn't have much of an idea on how to properly adjust ranges to the rock. I'm still not super confident in my ranges - hence the thread.

I'm comfortably rolled for the game, and I'm a razor thin value bettor.

So for hand one, you're not uncomfortable playing a pot with a low SPR OOP with QJ?

You say I have to play tight and get creative pre flop... You're playing looser than me in some spots and tighter in others. For example, I did open hand 3, but wasn't even considering raising hand two. The game is very beatable despite the rake.

I'm not sure I get the point of a rock in a no-limit game. What's the point of including the rock in the pot size if you're not going to get to keep it (i.e., it's going immediately back into the pot)?

Like, as an extreme example, imagine you're playing 1/2 with a $500K rock. Should the $500K rock influence your action? Even if you win the pot, you're not keeping it (unless you stand up right away, which is a negligible effect for a $5 rock). It seems to me like that should just play like a normal 1/2 game.

Missed that, thanks. In that case, some of my overlimp hands might be raises or folds instead.

For those who don't understand, the rock is effectively a forced Mississippi straddle by the winner of the last pot. Some places start the preflop action to the left of the big blind, some to the left of the rock. It looks like the former in this game.

The most obvious change is that it makes the pot bigger. That means you have to raise more than in a straight 1/2 game to offer opponents the same pot odds. It also makes effective stack depths shorter.

If your stack is 200, it goes from 100bb to 40bb. An argument can be made that the correct adjustment is to tighten up. This means playing fewer speculative hands, whether you are doing the raising or just calling. Some would also advocate raising smaller if you have a skill advantage to maximize SPR.

You should also consider how this affects other players.

One thing I have noticed is that some players limp with hands they normally raise with in a 1/2 game. One goal of the raise is to get more money in the pot and the rock (or any straddle) accomplishes that, making the pot "big enough" for their taste. They no longer need to raise to accomplish that. So, when they limp, they may be limping with a stronger range than they limp with in a 1/2 game. Of course, not all players are like this. Ultimately, you have to know who you are playing against.

Perhaps related, I've noticed that games with a rock are sometimes less likely to see 3bets by non-premium hands. This means that you can cold-call more in certain spots without fear of being raised behind. But sometimes, people embrace the rock to spur action, so you should cold-call less because the game attracts the sort of players who will squeeze more.

In a game with a voluntary Mississippi straddle, players are often tenacious defenders of their straddle. The players who choose to straddle are doing so because they crave action, so they don't abandon the pot so quickly. In a game with a rock, the straddler is involuntary, so some players will defend as often. The rock is more likely to be dead money when a tight player has won the previous pot, so you can raise with a wider range than against someone who will call lightly, especially when they are a good player who can have position.

So, in short, the rock affects the size of the starting pot and the depth of the stacks. This is a pretty straightforward adjustment that doesn't depend on who is in the game. The rock also affects the psychology and game dynamics. This is less straightforward because different people react differently to the same stimulus.

It won't because the rock does put more money in the pot and changes bet sizing. The extra blind means you need to raise a little more preflop to get FE, particularly when the rock is after you. If the rock is after you and you raise to $10 preflop the rock is now priced in to play almost any two cards. It will make preflop bet sizing bigger which makes bluffs preflop to take the blinds less profitable because the risk/reward ratio is worse. All of that cuts into SPR which makes effective stacks smaller.

You do have a good point about being forced to put the rock right back in. Some coin toss with a small edge situations are going to be pushed to small -EV because you will have to put the rock money back in blind the next hand.

I really like what my coach said about hand one. He said to go $40 to drive the straddle out, and iso the limper - that way we can play a pot IP. Also winning $13 rake free with Q high isn't bad.

He said if action was folded to us, he likes going $25. He recognizes that we'll often be OOP in a HU pot, but people defend their straddles way too liberally, so we'll take the pot down otf often with a c bet, and otherwise QJs is just a really good in general and we will flop well.

I really like his advice here.