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Old 12-13-2020, 02:05 PM   #1
sixsevenoff
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1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

1/2/5, 8 handed, $600 effective. Hero only has five hours collectively with villain over a few sessions, but villain is definitely fishy. Villain is very loose passive pre flop, and seems to be more of a centrist (between passive and aggressive) post. I really don't have enough experience with him to make any definitive conclusions about what hands he is playing aggressively post. We don't have any meaningful hand histories. He view me as TAG.

OTTH

Villain has the straddle in HJ. Hero raises 9 9 to $25 CO and only villain calls.

Flop ($53): Q J 9. Villain checks, hero bets $20, villain raises to $60, hero calls.

Turn ($173): 9. Villain bets $150. Hero?
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Old 12-13-2020, 02:40 PM   #2
XtraScratch8
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

Raise flop? No.
Turn? Call.
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Old 12-13-2020, 02:57 PM   #3
sixsevenoff
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

The argument I can see for 3 betting flop or shoving turn is that any K/T/8 could kill future action, unless he's just spewing
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Old 12-13-2020, 03:40 PM   #4
QuadJ
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

Flop reraise would be too aggressive. At that point your flop down bet may have caused him to raise pretty wide and you don't want to scare off his weak and medium hands yet. On the turn villains action takes away one of the reasons for raising turn, he bet enough that you will be setup for a river shove anyways.

The question at that point is it more likely a card might freeze river action or will a turn shove scare him off? This is where knowing more about villain's play really matters. Depending on how likely it is villain is betting a draw, how he will react to a card that completes draws and what he does with medium strength hands either option could be better. I favor a call because there are more bricks then scare cards and villain has to go first but I wouldn't complain if you shove.
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Old 12-13-2020, 03:55 PM   #5
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

Tough spot.
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Old 12-13-2020, 04:34 PM   #6
Just_Raking
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

So you have quads in position on the turn and the villain pots it leaving less than a pot size bet behind. Hmm I wonder..

Hope he got there with QTcc
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Old 12-13-2020, 04:59 PM   #7
the_dude_174
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

I think it's a clear call IP.

OOP jam turn.
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Old 12-13-2020, 05:07 PM   #8
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

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Originally Posted by Just_Raking View Post
So you have quads in position on the turn and the villain pots it leaving less than a pot size bet behind. Hmm I wonder..

Hope he got there with QTcc
lol
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Old 12-13-2020, 05:20 PM   #9
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

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Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Tough spot.
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Old 12-13-2020, 06:20 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff View Post
1/2/5, 8 handed, $600 effective. Hero only has five hours collectively with villain over a few sessions, but villain is definitely fishy. Villain is very loose passive pre flop, and seems to be more of a centrist (between passive and aggressive) post. I really don't have enough experience with him to make any definitive conclusions about what hands he is playing aggressively post. We don't have any meaningful hand histories. He view me as TAG.



OTTH



Villain has the straddle in HJ. Hero raises 9 9 to $25 CO and only villain calls.



Flop ($53): Q J 9. Villain checks, hero bets $20, villain raises to $60, hero calls.



Turn ($173): 9. Villain bets $150. Hero?

Does action start with you preflop? If so, I like the large sizing to discourage opponents preflop (especially button), so youíll get to play a larger pot IP

You canít really go wrong here. I lean towards jam because heís repping a straight and air given preflop action, our holding and his turn sizing. I think a lot of his ďairĒ has a ten in it, and I think we can get a lot of drawing dead calls if we put it in.


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Old 12-14-2020, 01:36 AM   #11
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

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Originally Posted by djevans View Post
To be fair it's the uncertainty that makes it a tough spot, and I think you can make good arguments for call or raise here.

Sure we're going to win the hand, but we still have $300 that is at stake; it's just so happened that we view it as only upside. If we viewed the problem as we already have $600, but we need to make a bet to minimizes how much of that we lose between $0 and $300, it's exactly the same.
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Old 12-14-2020, 10:37 AM   #12
sixsevenoff
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
Flop reraise would be too aggressive. At that point your flop down bet may have caused him to raise pretty wide and you don't want to scare off his weak and medium hands yet. On the turn villains action takes away one of the reasons for raising turn, he bet enough that you will be setup for a river shove anyways.

The question at that point is it more likely a card might freeze river action or will a turn shove scare him off? This is where knowing more about villain's play really matters. Depending on how likely it is villain is betting a draw, how he will react to a card that completes draws and what he does with medium strength hands either option could be better. I favor a call because there are more bricks then scare cards and villain has to go first but I wouldn't complain if you shove.
I love flop small sizing for this exact reason. You make a really good point re: whether to call or shove turn. Without knowing his tendencies, it's gotta be a call off of what you wrote, as there's roughly a 75% probability of a clean river.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94
Tough spot.
I value your posts, but what is this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
Does action start with you preflop? If so, I like the large sizing to discourage opponents preflop (especially button), so you’ll get to play a larger pot IP

You can’t really go wrong here. I lean towards jam because he’s repping a straight and air given preflop action, our holding and his turn sizing. I think a lot of his “air” has a ten in it, and I think we can get a lot of drawing dead calls if we put it in.


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Yes, the action starts on us pre. I assume you're thinking then that his air won't go for a third barrel if he bricks the river?
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Old 12-14-2020, 10:57 AM   #13
twitcherroo
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

V’s sizing I think makes it a call. Leaving a less than PSB on the river but minimal options on turn (both min raise and jam look ridiculous strong). Let V fire on river and if not you have options.
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Old 12-14-2020, 11:23 AM   #14
sixsevenoff
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

I forgot to mention - Bart Hanson advocated either flatting turn or min raising. I really hate the min raise in theory, but I totally see what he's getting at in this hand with these dynamics.
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Old 12-14-2020, 11:40 AM   #15
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

Pretty hard to min raise that turn with less than a PSB behind and the preceding action with less than a boat.....
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Old 12-14-2020, 12:03 PM   #16
BHDonkey
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
Pretty hard to min raise that turn with less than a PSB behind and the preceding action with less than a boat.....
You're assuming that the villain is even paying attention to stack sizes...this is LLSNL after all.

I've played in countless social home games (many of these guys also play at the local card clubs in LA)...you would be shocked how many times I've seen people make awful folds and then only afterwards, when I mention stack sizes, do they realize the blunder.

And, FWIW, they don't learn from it.
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Old 12-14-2020, 01:41 PM   #17
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

Hope you didnt fold.

Call this hand in to Bart Hanson?
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Old 12-14-2020, 01:53 PM   #18
hitchens97
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BHDonkey View Post
You're assuming that the villain is even paying attention to stack sizes...this is LLSNL after all.

I've played in countless social home games (many of these guys also play at the local card clubs in LA)...you would be shocked how many times I've seen people make awful folds and then only afterwards, when I mention stack sizes, do they realize the blunder.

And, FWIW, they don't learn from it.
Friendly ammendment, often they don't see it as a blunder even after you call it out, and wonder what on earth you are talking about.
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Old 12-14-2020, 02:29 PM   #19
sixsevenoff
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

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Originally Posted by wewa925 View Post
Hope you didnt fold.

Call this hand in to Bart Hanson?
Lol.

I talked to Bart about it, as mentioned in the thread, but he didn't want to have it on the show.
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Old 12-14-2020, 09:30 PM   #20
nutsornot
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

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Lol.

I talked to Bart about it, as mentioned in the thread, but he didn't want to have it on the show.
Lacked depth?
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Old 12-17-2020, 05:50 PM   #21
sixsevenoff
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Re: 1/2/5 99 Turned Quads - Three Bet Flop? Raise Turn?

@nutsornot That's probably why he didn't inlcude it, yeah.

Anyways, I just flatted. River was 4. He x, I shoved, and he tank folded Q 2. I think this hand really highlights the benefits of using small flop sizing. If I were to have gone 2/3 on the flop, or even 1/2 pot, I highly doubt he takes this line.
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