Game is 1/2 200 min/no max buy in. Was recently changed from 2/5 400 min/no max about an hour ago because it was down to 5 players. Got changed to bring it back to full ring.

Various stack sizes. One guy has 2k+, another has 1200, Hero has 900, but most are sitting between 200-400.

Hero(~900): mid 20's Asian super tag. maybe even nittier than most. Easily folding 85%+ hands pre. was relatively card dead the whole session at 2/5. the last half hour at 1/2, raised pre a few times and took down some pots uncontested otf and turn. may have a slight laggy and aggressive image to some now.

Villain 1(~300): early 40's white male. been sitting only about 45 min. seems like a standard abc player. no real reads on him.

Villain 2(easily covers Hero): late 50's white male wearing a Boston cap. won a few huge pots within the last 30 min. doesn't seem to pressured by aggressiveness. taken down several pots uncontested. 4bet shoved otf vs one opponent, the other guy folded and V showed middle set.

the table has been fairly loose pre. standard raises 12-22 depending on limpers with 4-6 going multiway. however, has been more passive on the remaining streets.

Hero UTG limps with AA.
seemed like the perfect spot to go for l/r because the action was so loose pre. Didn't want to open to 15 and go 5 ways to the flop.

Folds to V1 in MP who makes it 15.
Folds to V2 in BB who calls.
Hero tanks for about 15 sec. Thinks about how much to 3bet. Cuts out chips and makes it 60 to iso. After thinking about it, Hero should have 3bet slightly larger.
V1 and V2 quickly call.

Flop Q84.

V2 donks 65.
Hero thinks for a bit. After about 20 sec., raises to 180.
V1 mumbles in frustration. Checks his cards again. While this is going on, Hero look back at V2 and he puts his hands on his stack like he is ready to shove. Basically angle shooting V1, daring him to call. V1 eventually folds.
After V1 folds, V2 takes his hands down, and stares Hero down. Ask dealer how much it is, and makes the call.

Now, Hero's original plan for the hand was to try to get 3 streets of value. After V2 donked the flop, Hero decided to r/f if V2 repopped or shipped, putting him exactly on QQ or 88. I mean, we're deep enough to not shovel in with a single pair. After V2 calls the raise, Hero ranges V on AQ, KQ, or XcXc. Hero is hoping for a blank turn to bomb.

Turn 3.

V2 checks pretty quickly.
Hero?

Check behind and try to get to showdown cheaply. U can bet for value on river if checked thru. I hate the limp reraise when super deep. I think it's better for u to open raise bigger pre, try open raising to 30-35 and adjust that number if needed to get 1-2 callers

Btw just cause he flatted your flop raise doesn't mean u can discount qq,88,44 completely. He could be setting a trap or wait for a nonclub turn

I think since the board is so drawy, he shoves the flop with a set.

Thread title only Grunch

This is already a fail. Why in the world are you turing your hand face up with a 450BB stack?

Grunch

As played, check behind. Again going for a limp/raise 450BB deep is absolutely terrible. Just make a standard open and play poker. At least that way your range won't be exclusively AA/KK.

Lol, well he does"t have to worry about being out drawn if he does have a set, since Hero has only one conceivable draw in his range, AKcc. If I had a set here, I would probably flat and let Hero commit himself of blank turns If I though he was capable of folding AA OTF to a 3bet.

Pot on turn is $570. $670 left.

Bet $200 and call his shove.

If he just calls turn fold river to any bet.

What exactly do you think he is getting called by OTT? Isn't he always drawing to 2 outs or dead to a shove OTT? Betting $200 OTT + $200... Pot OTR = ~$1000... Folding to a bet of $370 OTR? $1370/370= 3.7:1?

If raises are getting a lot of callers preflop, I like the limp/raise occasionally but when you do this raise huge. Your announcing to the table you have AA/KK, bet something that is basically daring villains to bust your pair. You didn't get as many callers as you would like here, but you still need to raise to at least $75 and I would go $100 and just planning on stacking off if called.

As played, I'm trying to get to a cheap river after the flush comes in. Check behind and see what happens on river. You can call a single reasonable sized bet, but you don't want to make the pot too big or get raised.

i don´t like the l/r with AA in most situations, but i really hate it here. normally you just push villains out and collect some dead money, but in this case you are actually announcing your hand to the table while being deep enough to let villains call and try to run you down without making a big mistake.

cmon...
just raise your normal UTG amount, 12 or 15 or whatever. yes, you have a good hand, the nuts preflop, but you aren´t looking to play a 450bb pot without improving. just raise, get some callers, valuebet, and if you get raised and are forced to fold, well, be it.

as played, we took a line where we can´t really pot control at this point in the hand. if we planned to do so, just open raise or flat his flop donk.
we played it to stack off. bet/call.

V continued to stare down Hero. Hero felt the check was genuinely weak. B/c was what Hero was thinking, but wasn't sure exactly how much because it leaves extremely small awkward stack size otr. I guess just caught up in the moment but Hero elected to check, hoping to get to showdown. Everything Hero loses to is being shipped here: QQ, 88, and flush. The only thing we really beat is AcQx.

Hero checks back.

River Kd.

As soon as river hits the table, V quickly reaches for chips and bets 325.
Hero tanks for a while, going back over the hand in his head. V remains motionless, staring off in the distance, putting his hands over his mouth.

Bluffcatching time or fold, losing only a little over a quarter of his stack?

I think when you check OTT, you commit yourself to calling a reasonable bet OTR. Of course, the K is not a great card for you, but then again, V should know that repping the flush OTR is pretty easy with the line he took. I think you have to call if V thinks you are capable of folding top pair, especially getting 2-1 on your money. Otherwise, I would sigh fold.

Since Hero checked back the flop, easiest call ever.

and

Means Villain has nothing.

But because of this

He may now have hit the K.

AA is probably good here, but doubtful Villain calls a raise.

If Villain actually has a hand here, like QQ or , he's probably not going to c/r the turn.

If he's still weak, he'll shove the turn. So we can confidently call after making a little bet to induce.

However, if Villain flats our turn bet, and then leads the river, AA is rarely good, so we can confidently fold.

The thing is... Villain's range here could be pretty wide. So we really just need to decide what his actions will be with the strongest part of his range, and play exploitably against him.

This is a situation where just computing pot odds doesn't tell the story. In fact, our pot odds computation may induce us to make a mistake here.

~~~~~~~~~~

As played, since Hero checked back the turn, Villain's bluff range is still widest and we can call the river bet. I don't particularly like this line, but it isn't terrible.

see in which crappy spot we are now? if we call, we are basically playing a 600bb pot with just one pair...
as played, i don´t think you got much choice but to call though. you did your best to bloat this pot as big as possible, it is a bad idea imo to start potcontrolling in the middle of the hand after all that action. as i said, if you are afraid of playing a huge pot with AA, you accomplished the opposite with your l/r, raise flop line.

I agree with the consensus. Don't l/rr this deep. Flop is an obv raise, turn is an obv check back, and river we have to call and lose to moronically played KQ.

So in this already 300bb pot OTT, if we bet $200 you think that if Villain is weak he will shove, but it he is strong he will just call? I feel the complete opposite here. He may still bet when checked to if he is weak (not possible here cuz we IP), but to think that if we bet $200 with $400 behind, he will shove over the top with air... That doesn't make any sense. Not to mention our range is almost always an over pair here. Flatting with a set or a flush OTT if we bet would be horrible considering we can have the Ac or Kc.

Strong action doesn't always mean weak hand, especially in this spot.

This hand is all about reads since we can't really continue past the turn now that the flush is in.

So unless you have a read that V2 is not strong, then sure, fold.

But V2's actions add up to weakness to me.

Donk/call on the flop with the staring contest is a hugely weak.

The 3 hitting the turn is a great card for Villain and a terrible card for Hero. So we should expect some shenanigans from Villain here. IMO when he x/shoves the turn, he does not beat AA. I'm happily calling him off here. A x/call would be a much stronger line, since both players should now be committed, and I'll give Villain for knowing that he's very unlikely to get a fold from Hero after x/call on the turn, regardless as to what happens on the river.

Since we chose not to poke the bear on the turn, we really have to just call him down on the river. This is especially true when he gives us a good price to do so.

You know, the other thing about this hand is that the table was playing 2/5NL just a few minutes ago. IDK why anyone would consider this to be a 1/2NL table. The players are going to play as if the blinds were 2/5 still, as far as stack depth. I'd play this as if we were 220bb deep, not 400+.

And given the multi-way nature of the table, I'm l/r preflop very wide. If your l/r range is [KK+], then yeah, don't do it. But if your l/r range is wide, and you can read hands well, and you are not afraid to fold a strong hand post flop, then it is perfect for this type of table.

YMMV.

Don't l/r with aces, especially utg where its DEF aces or Kings. The staring you down thing is so weak it's not even funny. I mean he tried to fake out the other guy from calling! I am def not checking this this turn. In fact I am betting this turn, half pot and waiting for V to check his card to see if he has one club!