1/2, 9 handed, $250 effective. The game is very wild with lots of all ins pre, bluffing, all ins blind, etc.

BTN is a LAG fish who has an estimated VPIP of 85%, BB is a small winning loose end of TAG reg, and +2 is the one who has been going all in blind, called off T5s and K9o pre earlier after looking at cards. Hero has a TAG image.

OTTH

BTN straddles for $5, loose passive SB calls, BB calls, loose passive UTG calls, we $40 9♦️ 9♠️ +1, and +2, BTN, and BB call.

Flop ($170): J♦️ 5♦️ 3♣️. BB checks, we $75, +2 folds, BTN folds, BB shoves for $210 altogether. Hero?

I feel like we have to c bet here given how wide +2 and BTN are. I would expect us to have the best hand here a majority of the time, and there are 21 turn cards we don't want to see. What do you think of the c bet and sizing?

Not cbetting here so multi-way. AP, folding.

Meh you only need 23%. Call it off. You’ve got 13% vs. AxJx/55/33 so he only needs a couple bluffs before you are very healthy +EV.

Do you like the c bet?

Why not, with given villains?

If we get called in even one spot, what’s our plan? Pot will be super big and we don’t know if V called with Jx or middle pair or a draw to help us decide between a shove or check call or check fold.

Given the SPR it’s never a big mistake and you often have the best hand. BB absolutely has 55/33 which is a big drag on your EV when he x/jams so it really depends i) how many Axdd or other SCdd type hands he has and ii) would he ever just stone bluff this spot. Every low equity spazz he has drastically boosts your EV.

At first, Cbetting into 4 opponents seems a bit crazy even if they are batshit crazy. It goes against normal tendencies but could have merit. For the effective stacks remaining, I think any Jx calls even as bad as J9.

As for profitability, I guess we would need to run the possibilities of at least 1 V holding Jx vs the equity and I suppose because the pot is so bloated, you can't fold here.

I think that most people are just dismissing this but I primarily play live PLO and this is more common because you get to showdown more often multiway. The pots are so bloated that calling off super light is often the most profitable play.

Also, we probably need to see which is the best over time here. Call to set mine pre vs 3bet/GII on x% of the boards out there. If someone has the time, I will throw you $20 sklansky dollars for running the sims.

Funny you mention that, I actually had a dream this past night where the question was posed whether in these spots in these games if it's better to over limp or just raise pre.

It's raising without question. Lets not even get started there.

That's what I thought/still think, but it's still something to ponder, because we are almost always going 3-6 ways in this game with weird SPR's and lots of marginal spots post.

There's nothing weird about it. You've got 50 BB effective stacks and a strong mid-PP. If someone wants to GII preflop you GII. If people wanna go fish for 15-20% of their stacks pre then so be it.

I'll happily gii pre, but when we raise it almost never goes in pre and we do a lot of x-f on the flop; limping pre allows us to 3bgii, or set mine on the flop vs idiot villains. I favor raising though because limping just feels like wasting our equity pre.

Raise bigger pre if they are as fishy as described and you have guys going all in blind and getting 4 callers make it like 75 preflop. AP I personally am checking people aren’t shoving without something here. Pray for non diamond 9 or lower so we can ship turn

Wild as the game is, w only 250 it appears you haven’t been involved much, so you might be able to just have everyone fold (worse) which is fine. Either way, shove flop the first time. AP call.

Really? Why not bet small and get value from 66-88 and 5x, 3x? I feel like shoving the first time around allows the two wild players to sigh fold all of those hands except maybe 66-88.

All in preflop.

You have 50BBs and 99 doesn't play well postflop but will almost always be ahead of their calling range. Plus there is a bunch of dead money out there.

As played - flop is never a cbet. In general you don't want to cbet hands in the middle of your range.

There’s 170 in the middle and you have ~200 behind. The wild players are just folding all of a sudden? Wild means they call w any piece/pair and 99 there is just no room for bets of any other size. Htmap.

You’re not shoving 250 over a couple limps btw, ever.

Yes the guy that suggested this — please put him on ignore.

Am I going nuts? All in preflop with players to act behind for a 20 dollar pot? All in on the flop isn't great, and I don't particularly like betting this flop as you're like 90% to get shoved on in this type of game. Id check the flop and hope the board pairs...as played I probably fold and hate myself for how I got 110 dollars in with 9s.

A wild and crazy game to me means there are much better spots to get my money in, and I'm a pretty aggressive player. That 75 dollar bet sucks. Bet 120 and force yourself to call or just check.

Do you realize how good winning 4BB's in a hand is?

If you are a great player you probably win around 10BB/hr. So let's assume 30 hands an hour.

Average BB won per hand = .3 BB.

Anyways OP - given your description of the Villains and the fact that you only have 50BB. Employing a short stacked strategy is almost certainly the highest EV play here.

Here are the odds of an overcard flopping.



This chart doesn't include the times you flop a set AND an overcard comes.

That will happen 7% of the time.

So this situation will happen very often - that's why shoving 50BB's is higher EV in a vacuum. Against these guys - it's a slam dunk ship.

Lol of course winning 4 bb is good but the risk reward isn't worth it. Maniacs bleed money, be grateful you got a seat at a table full of them and don't get called by aq where you have 55% equity

It's just a math problem.

I agree, shoving pre flop seems over the top. Even in a wild game, I don't think we're getting called by worse than two overs, maybe 66-88.

I see, so 11.7% of the time we get called by an OP (The first limper has one often enough, I'll give you the overlimpers for free). Can you do the 'math problem' for us on the shove now?

Do you realize how bad losing -2bb/hr is?

If you are a horrendous player you probably lose around 10BB/hr. So let's assume 30 hands an hour.

Average BB lost per hand = .3 BB.

So shoving is losing 7x faster than the worst player imaginable.