1/2 NLH

Hero ($1000): Young tight player. Maniac hasn't seen hero being active as hero is card dead.

Villain 1(~$690): Late 20's or early 30's dark skinned guy (latin?) wearing snapback cap, sunglasses.. Must've blasted off 5-6 buy-ins already at this point at a couple of different tables but most of it at this table. The players at the table loved playing with this guy. He came back with another buy-in and ran it up to about 700. Most of it came from stacking a older loose asian woman when he c/c all the way to river and shoved when he hit his straight and asian woman called him down with A high (AKo)

Only been playing with V for 30 minutes, so my reads on him are minimal:

- V usually opens large, about $15 - $25, with the lower range being ATC and larger range would be probably be 88+ and broadways.

- V is a huge station if hes not the aggressor or PFR. He would call with anything on the flop.. any pair or draw..

- I might've picked up a physical tell.. I observed his timing when he bets.. he seems to take more time when value-betting, probably thinking how he can get paid.

- Has shown down a bluff or two and called down light atleast a couple times.

Villain 2 ($600): Older middle eastern man. Has been my main source of income tonight. Im sure hes been itching to get his money back from me. He's a loose passive player, huge station.

Hand:

Hero opens to $15 UTG+1 with AQ
V1 in MP calls, V2 in BTN calls

Flop ($45): A89

Hero bets $35, V1 snap calls, V2 snap calls

Turn ($150): 4

Hero bets $65, V1 snap calls, V2 snap calls

Bet too small?

River ($345): 4

Hero bets $100, V1 thinks for about 30s and shoves ~$575 stack, Hero?

Again, bet sizing too small??

Need more info - the river is very player dependent. Has villain been shoving with air? (There are plenty of draws that blanked the river.) Does he play his draws fast or slowplay his flopped sets?

Bet bigger on turn, call maniac on river if he is capable of shoving missed draws. Also betting slightly bigger on river


edit: I could see a fold, but it really depends if you think he would flat a set on two streets with 98ss on board. This just really looks like a missed draw with it being 3 way. Also this is 1/2 so paying off may not be the best idea. I think it really just depends.

Like I said, reads are minimal as I havent played much with the V.

He did the same with his straight draw against the asian woman. C/C until the river where he shoved all-in. He hit his straight on the turn.

He bluffed with his busted nut FD but he didn't bet big.

Havent seen him play sets.

I assume V2 folds?

Given your timing tell, and the fact that this is the exact same line he took earlier, it is clear he is value betting. The question is what? If he snap shoves this, I think we have to call, too many busted draws and 98 turned into a bluff to fold. Since he tanks before shoving, I think we can have his range at sets, 4x, Ax. If you keep this entire range, then you have 33% equity and should call.

But does he continue past the flop with 4x except where x is A,8,or 9? If you remove all 4x except those, your equity goes to 55%, and if you discount AA and 44 as unlikely, you get 56%.

The only way you can drop you equity much below 33% is if you can remove most of the Ax from his range, and given the rest of the read of this V, I don't think you can do that.

This is a clear call. Hope he sticks around!

Bigger bets on all streets including preflop if he's gonna call them. That river really helps you a ton. All you have to worry about now is 99/88/A9/A8. I suppose ak is possible. Match that up against the things you beat, which sounds like a ton and you have your decision. Note that decision would be much easier if your sizing had been appropriate on all streets.

I would probably call here. I dont like your turn sizing though.

Expecting him to show up with JTss / Q9ss etc more than the (likely) A4 he probably did have.

I did forget about A4 bit it's less likely than the others.

I'm not sure I make much money off maniacs. Sometimes you win a big pot off them, but next thing you know, they talk you into stacking off with a marginal hand. I just can't deal with this kind of *******ry any more. I say "whatever." Muck my cards. Put on some tunes. Look at the pretty babies. He will go away soon enough. That's just my opinion; and it's worth about what you paid for it.

If you ever want To crush at any level you will not only learn to deal with maniacs, you will follow them around. You will dance for joy when they sit down and you will die a little inside when they get up. Come play with me for a few nights. You'll hate it.

why arent we considering 4x ss??? Not just A4 spades.

Bet near full pot on turn. By calling preflop and calling a flop like this they have indicated they have something. Now tax them. It's live and players dont fold hands they like. Either way you played it, snap call or shove river on a brick like this, even for 350BB's (which really isnt all that deep with $15-$25 being the average preflop raise). This is a trivial river bet, TRIVIAL.

I understand you're concerned that he raised which is uncharacteristic of him, but you also confessed to having only played 30 minutes with him, which means you've probably only played 15 hands or so with him. He's already proven himself to be bad. Bad does not = nuts, this early in the game. Plus I think you may have induced him to do this with your bet sizing.

This spot is so player dependent, I'm not sure anyone can tell you what to do on the river. In a vacuum it's a fairly easy snap fold, but villain description muddies everything. Turn sizing def needs to be larger this deep, especially with villain 2 calling behind and his description in OP.

Villain 1 needs to be a special type of crazy to just stuff ~350 bbs into the pot, especially when you bet 3 streets. A lot of absolute maniacs are good at betting/overbetting when checked to because they (correctly) assume you have nothing because people don't adjust well, but in my experience it's very, very rare for them to actually try to make people fold something, especially on this board texture. You may have induced something, but it's still a fold.

OP your sizing is terrible. Way too small. This is a tough spot but vs a maniac and all the draws that bricked I find the call button.

Love maniacs. If hes a true maniac shipping 350 bbs shouldn't be a problem.

I disagree strongly with gatsb's analysis and take on maniacs. The maniacs I encounter make people fold medium strength hands all the time and put you in tough spots like this one.

Michigan is right, maniacs/drunks are high variance but high profit. OMC tables are easy to beat, low variance, but low profit. The maniacs are awesome.


As for the hand, I like the turn sizing. A lot of times, Vs don't understand % of the pot, and will fold if the bet is too high in absolute terms. I think if you lead the turn for 100 into 150 you pretty much never get worse to call (unless it's a combo draw...you're never getting a worse made hand to call). So I like the slightly less than 1/2 PSB.

The river size is a little small, although again I go for near (or under) 1/2 PSB trying to get AT and AJ to call. The upside to the low sizing is that we don't commit ourselves vs shoves. I'm folding.

does anybody like a river check to give villains room to hang themselves?

+1, that was my first thought.

If we weight his hand mostly towards draws, it's a much better play to c/c. Yeah he'll check back his weaker aces sometimes, but it puts us in a much more comfortable position to let him bluff away his spade/straight draws.

AP we're not sure if he is capable of jamming, and although your bet-sizing is pretty weak otr, his play looks strong regardless. I probably fold without a better read on him, especially since you want to be able to play deepstacked with him later in the session.

why are we weighting his range mostly towards draws?

he has a bunch of Ax in his range that we're going to miss value from. bet/bet/bet line is better than bet/bet/bluff-catch against a villain who calls down too lightly.

The OP said he's calling with any pair/any draw - this is a pretty draw-heavy board for a lot of hands. Granted there are some Ax in his range but if he's calling with J10/T7/76 + his random gutters and all his FDs I think that outweighs the Ax that we beat.

That being said I don't necessarily disagree with a bet otr given the V's description, I just think that he will probably take a stab with his missed draws and possibly with his stronger Ax hands (although obviously we can't be sure since OP was only with V for 30 minutes).

How has V played his value hands on earlier streets typically? Has he been fast playing flopped sets/2p? Just wondering how likely it is that he has a made hand that doesn't involve a 4...

Against a maniac it's going to take a solid live read and sound grasp of his tendencies to call off here with only one pair. There's more than a few 4x combos in his range by the river and I feel like they account for a larger percentage of his range than busted draws or hands we beat.

In my own experience with maniacs, they become far less likely to spew once they've dropped a few BI's and built it back again. If he's any kind of competent and image conscious hes aware that people view him as crazy and will call down light. Again - this is so player dependent but I feel like we're beat here more often than not.

And you said it yourself - if you think you've picked up a timing tell on him and he's tank-betting for value then go with it and fold

I did my best to read through everything and I have to say I am not convinced at all that this so called maniac is ever willing to jam 300bb on a busted draw after we beat every street. You said he takes more time when value betting, it just seems fishy. I think we have way to little info. If he is a maniac just give it some time to get a better read on him. He has polarized his range and IMO this is more often done with nuttish hands not air.