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Old 05-19-2017, 08:03 AM   #1
CleanoutKid
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1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

1/2 NLH, table is loose passive

Hero ($360) is on BB with Kh9h

4 limpers, SB completes, hero checks

Flop: KcJc9d

Hero bets 10, folded around to CO who raises to 50, SB folds, hero ??

Villain is about $500 and a bad reg. Very loose passive preflop, betting is mostly face up. I haven't seen him play any draws aggressively but I have seen him get it in 3 way pot with TPGK + FD in the past.

We have 2P but KJ, QT, 99, all make sense. So does a few random top pairs as well as J9. Stack sizes + number of people in pot makes me want to err on the side of caution.

Can I call this raise and shut down to any further action if it starts getting heavy?
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:05 AM   #2
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

I think just folding is safest. You may have two pair, but you actually have one of the worse hands you have in this situation against a raise (a draw is better).
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:37 AM   #3
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

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Originally Posted by CleanoutKid View Post
Can I call this raise and shut down to any further action if it starts getting heavy?
Yes you can. There are lots of Kx hands in villains range. That said, if villain is normally passive and feels good enough about his hand to raise here, he will probably be betting again if we check the turn, no? If villain is bad, he might not be smart enough to slow down with worse hands, forcing us to call two more streets. If we're not prepared to do that, we should fold here or take back the initiative on non-club turns.

Even if we are good here, we're going to need to commit quite a bit of chips. I would wait for a better spot.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:01 AM   #4
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

??

How often are people just raising Kx vs a bet into 5 other players?
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:09 AM   #5
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

Meh, fold.

Do you really want to play for stacks with this hand?
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:59 AM   #6
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

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??

How often are people just raising Kx vs a bet into 5 other players?
Good players don't, bad regs do. They also raise with straights and TPFD. Better off folding in most circumstances.
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:12 AM   #7
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

in this case, I'd put in a blocker bet/reraise assuming the player would truly see it has strength and slow down in fear of being reraised in further streets.

Edit: just reread H's stack, the spr after villain calls eliminates this play(basically a push after this point unless the blocker bet gets you all the way to showdown), so I guess it's better to fold here and find a better spot.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:19 PM   #8
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

So basically folding is best. Thanks for the feedback

SPOILER FOR THOSE INTERESTED: Hero thinks about calling but remembers that a wise man once said "don't go broke in a limped pot" and folds.

After the hand villain said he had AK. He made sure to stress to the whole table the importance of raising to protect against draws. He's a nice guy so I believe him, he really has no reason to lie anyways

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Old 05-19-2017, 02:40 PM   #9
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

He limped CO after 4 limpers with AK? If he wanted to protect against draws, why didn't he raise pre flop and isolate?

A raise in this spot by villain, I would expect KJ and Q10 most of the time and 99 some of the time although we block 99. I also think most one pair hands with the straight draws like K10, KQ, J10, 910 would just call flop.

Nice spazz though if he really had AK. One of these times he'll go broke with AK against someone who limped Q10 and traps him.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:07 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

Oh come on. We can't be serious about folding 2-pair on this flop. Call and evaluate turn.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:55 PM   #11
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

I think you played it find. If the J was the Jh, I would have peeled, because we'd be able to call bets on more turns.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:58 PM   #12
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

Not sure what other flop you want to flop 2 pair on instead of this.
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:13 PM   #13
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

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Not sure what other flop you want to flop 2 pair on instead of this.
A flop without straight and flush draws, preferably.

As I said earlier, a bad reg won't stop barreling if he thinks his hand is good, so we have to be willing to call him down on two more streets. While villain is clearly dopey enough to be betting with TPTK and not realize the trouble he could be in, it's hard to discern the difference from hero's perspective if villain is overconfident in a worse hand (which will probably bet turn and river) or if villain has flopped a straight or TP+FD. (Not to mention a larger two pair or set possibility.)

It's a lot of chips to commit to a hand where we're out of position when we can just wait for a better spot to exploit the villain.
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:15 PM   #14
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

I was replying to persianpunisher, and meant to say what other flop he wanted to fold 2 pair on instead. If you read my reply, I said we should fold this.
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:31 PM   #15
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

Tons of draws, we block all 2-pair combos. People play AA like this all the time. Call and evaluate turn. The fact that he had AK is proof that this fold is terrible.
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:51 PM   #16
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

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I was replying to persianpunisher, and meant to say what other flop he wanted to fold 2 pair on instead. If you read my reply, I said we should fold this.
Oh, I see. I agree, if we are going to let 2 pair go, this is the flop to do it on.

You might want to quote the person you're replying to for the sake of clarity
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:02 PM   #17
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
Tons of draws, we block all 2-pair combos. People play AA like this all the time. Call and evaluate turn. The fact that he had AK is proof that this fold is terrible.
Results-based analysis there.

With a limped pot, there is too wide of a range that villain can have that beats us. Even if we call, turn and river can bring a lot of cards that complete possible hands for villain. If we had position, this hand would be very different.

What if the turn brings a club or any card to complete straights and villain barrels? We have to avoid any A, Q, J, T or to maintain confidence in our hand. That means there are 4 A's, 4 Q's, 3 J's, 4 T's plus 13 clubs minus the 2 on board and the A, Q, and T of clubs we already counted and the 9 that gives us a boat. Up to 22 cards that can make us fold when he barrels, and because of the nature of villain he will most likely barrel the turn. Time to get away and wait for a better spot.

Or we can call him down and hope he doesn't have QT, KJ, 99, KK, or hit a potential flush or straight draw on a wet board...

Just my $.02
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:26 PM   #18
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

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Originally Posted by dmccoy87 View Post
Results-based analysis there.

With a limped pot, there is too wide of a range that villain can have that beats us. Even if we call, turn and river can bring a lot of cards that complete possible hands for villain. If we had position, this hand would be very different.

What if the turn brings a club or any card to complete straights and villain barrels? We have to avoid any A, Q, J, T or to maintain confidence in our hand. That means there are 4 A's, 4 Q's, 3 J's, 4 T's plus 13 clubs minus the 2 on board and the A, Q, and T of clubs we already counted and the 9 that gives us a boat. Up to 22 cards that can make us fold when he barrels, and because of the nature of villain he will most likely barrel the turn. Time to get away and wait for a better spot.

Or we can call him down and hope he doesn't have QT, KJ, 99, KK, or hit a potential flush or straight draw on a wet board...

Just my $.02
Made my analysis before reading his results comment. And I said that him having AK is more evidence to defend my original analysis. If you want to fold because there are scary turn cards and you're not sure how to play, that's fine. But we have the best hand a lot on the flop. Call and evaluate.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:46 PM   #19
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

Can't fold yet, esp when we beat J9, worse value raises, and all bluffs.
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:10 PM   #20
Ihadtrips
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

Folding K9, probably calling with Kj. It would be a weird spot to bluff. He could have KQ,KT, AK here but that's outweighed by his other value combos. In position I could get behind a call but OOP it's a bad spot.
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:43 PM   #21
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

Almost 0 difference between KJ and K9 in this spot. This is just awful advice in this thread.
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:55 AM   #22
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

Well, KJ is not the same since it blockers JJ and KJ, doesn't lost to KJ, and KJ beats K9 which he COULD play this way. Finally if it boats up KJ more likely to have a winning hand or have value.

It's not a huge difference but if K9 is close, KJ is certainly better enough that could push it into a call.

Probably not the case here, but I think it does matter.
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Old 05-20-2017, 07:58 PM   #23
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

+1. ^^

The only thing that's awful here is your attitude, and your belief that KJ = K9 here
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Old 05-20-2017, 08:06 PM   #24
Shai Hulud
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

I don't know if it's right, but I'm never folding here. Tons of LPs will limp their entire range, so villain's range might be something like most TP+, all 2p+, all pair+FD, all pair+SD, all SD+FD, all OESD, and all nut FD (could be even wider). This would look something like this:

{AA, KdKs, JdJh, JdJs, JhJs, 9s9c, AQs, ATs, QTs, T8s, 87s, AdKd, AsKs, KdQd, KsQs, KdJd, KsJs, QdJd, QhJh, QsJs, KdTd, KsTs, JdTd, JhTh, JsTs, Ac9c, Ks9s, Qs9s, Qc9c, Js9s, Ts9s, Tc9c, Ac8c, Qc8c, 9s8s, 9c8c, Ac7c, Qc7c, Ac6c, Qc6c, Ac5c, Qc5c, Ac4c, Qc4c, Ac3c, Ac2c, AQo, ATo, QTo, AdKs, AhKd, AhKs, AsKd, AcKd, AcKs, KdQh, KdQs, KdQc, KsQd, KsQh, KsQc, KdJh, KdJs, KsJd, KsJh, KdTh, KdTs, KdTc, KsTd, KsTh, KsTc, Kd9s, Kd9c, Ks9c, QdJh, QdJs, QhJd, QhJs, QsJd, QsJh, QcJd, QcJh, QcJs, JdTh, JdTs, JdTc, JhTd, JhTs, JhTc, JsTd, JsTh, JsTc, Jd9s, Jd9c, Jh9s, Jh9c, Js9c, Td9s, Td9c, Th9s, Th9c, Ts9c, Tc9s}

Against this range we have 62% equity. Villain might have even more FDs than this, like KXs and QXs.

I happily c/c down to the river here I think, unless particularly scary cards pop up and villain shoves.
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Old 05-20-2017, 09:11 PM   #25
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Re: 1/2 2P can I call this raise or nah?

I'm calling and peeling a turn.
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