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Old 06-25-2018, 07:11 PM   #1
Jamlana
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1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

Hero($250 UTG):20s African American female, new to poker. on this table she is seen as very conservative. Villain #1 puts Hero on blast at the table, saying she folds all her hands and hasn't played any...which was weird for him to say as he is doing the same thing! lol

Villian ($350 SB)#1: extremely social player. loves to talk likes to see the flop. and will check call to the river for a chance to get a "high hand" promotion. Has not been the aggressor in any of the hands Ive seen him play. We been at this table for almost an hour now and he still hasn't raised or anything aggressive like.

Hero has KQ UTG and limps

2 limpers Villian #1 makes it $6 on the small blind.

limpers call and hero calls.

Flop($26) is K4 10

Villian checks, hero checks , limpers check

Turn ($26)is 5

Villain bets $25
Hero snaps call

River($76): 8

Villian bets $60

Hero????

hero thoughts are that villain could have the A and doesn't want to reraise but at the same time, he played his hand like he hit the kings as a set. As Hero just " touched "her chips, he grabbed all his chips ready to push them on the betting line,All in style, he was too anxious) Which makes me believe he definitely has showdown value here. Plus he is betting 75% of the pot every time in this hand, which is unusual coming from him.

So is this just a call or a shove ??? (Shove because a reraise basically puts Hero all in)
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:41 PM   #2
DumbosTrunk
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

I would have bet flop. You have a strong pair and the second nut flush draw. V started betting when the third club hit so I put him on a flush or bluff. He bet pot on turn and almost pot on river so he seems strong. May seem timid but I just call. Raising gets action from better and usually folds out worse.

Also, KQ suited is good enough to come in for a raise, even UTG. You can fold KQ offsuit from this position if you want to be prudent.

Last edited by DumbosTrunk; 06-25-2018 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:19 PM   #3
Jarretman
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

Raise pre

As played bet flop

As played turn is fine

As played river jam (it's not really that close tbh)

I guess I don't mind a nitty just call with exactly KcQc vs a perceived nit if we were a lot deeper (in the sense that he would never call worse) but in a vacuum at a 1/2 table you're missing SO much value just calling this hand. Be careful assigning a random 1/2 player you've only played an hour with as a nit, and in this case villain being a nit would be great!

Villain is going to bet his Axcc on the flop a decent % of the time and if he's a nit (big assumption based on 1 hour don't forget) his only Axcc is AJcc cause we block AQcc and AKcc... so you're losing to exactly 1 combo of AJcc that checked the flop, and a nit might not even raise AJcc pre! So we actually want villain to be a nit.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:20 PM   #4
Nozsr
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

Grabbing chips before we make our action looks really strong.

Thus there is a good chance our Villain is weak.

Most players try to either "sit there like a tree stump" and give no tells, or try to affect our action by Hollywooding.

If it is an act, then "strong means weak" and "weak means strong".

If we don't know if it is an act, possibly we have not been paying enough attention to this Villain prior to the current hand.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:23 PM   #5
matzah_ball
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

Omg bet flop
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:17 PM   #6
repaupo
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

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Originally Posted by matzah_ball View Post
Omg bet flop

This......
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:21 PM   #7
QuinnthEskimo
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

I agree with raising pre, (10-12$)

We are UTG so this would be about the bottom of our open range here besides any suited connectors we throw in for balance and deception (infrequently).

KQo is too wide imo, but I will put these suited combos in my UTG range, same with AJs.

Then the hand plays straight forward when we have the initiative, bet bet bet GII

Great run out for us.
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Old 06-26-2018, 12:17 PM   #8
c0rnBr34d
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

I'm ok with raising or limping pre depending on how the table is playing. Villains $6 raise from the small blind with all those limpers does not represent strength to me. It's just juicing the pot. He could be doing it with a big hand or a suited connector or a small pair it could be any hand he wants to play OOP.

This is a dream flop for your hand, you want to be building a big pot here. The pre flop raiser has already checked, please do not let this check around. Bet the flop, if you want to get action size down but dont check. You've described V as not being aggressive yet you're waiting on V to do all the betting. I would take the opposite line here whenever he checks and we are strong dont try to trap a passive. Once he does start betting I'm ok with flatting the turn. It's possible he has the nut flush but if he's raising pre and flops the nut draw I'm surprised he's not making another micro bet on the flop. Also seems weird that he would pick AJc to raise so small in the blinds. In my experience when someone grabs their chips as if to snap call or snap shove when the action is on you, it is usually to deter you from betting. If they were really THAT strong they would WANT you to bet / shove and would not show you that they are strong enough to raise or call. That's not to say they are weak, just that they aren't as strong as they look. His line is all over the place but he clearly has something, maybe he has a set of 5s...

Oh, forgot about the river. It's hard to interpret Villains sudden aggression. Some players do this when they are strong but dont like the board. How has he played his other strong hands? I lean shove here but I'm ok with making a read to just call if you're worried.
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Old 06-26-2018, 01:37 PM   #9
twitcherroo
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

You checked the flip which is terrible. You snap called the measly $25 turn bet which is terrible. You clearly don’t like money which means you should fold on the river. Snap fold.
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Old 06-26-2018, 02:02 PM   #10
c0rnBr34d
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

Quote:
Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
You checked the flip which is terrible. You snap called the measly $25 turn bet which is terrible. You clearly don’t like money which means you should fold on the river. Snap fold.
I don't think the turn flat is bad with limpers behind, maybe one of them gets spicy with the A or just come along to bloat the pot with less of a hand. If we raise here we may just take it down and lose value from both limpers and Villain... If we are beat the money will go in anyways. It's only $25 but it's still a pot sized bet.
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Old 06-26-2018, 02:21 PM   #11
bigdaddycope
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarretman View Post
Raise pre

As played bet flop

As played turn is fine

As played river jam (it's not really that close tbh)

I guess I don't mind a nitty just call with exactly KcQc vs a perceived nit if we were a lot deeper (in the sense that he would never call worse) but in a vacuum at a 1/2 table you're missing SO much value just calling this hand. Be careful assigning a random 1/2 player you've only played an hour with as a nit, and in this case villain being a nit would be great!

Villain is going to bet his Axcc on the flop a decent % of the time and if he's a nit (big assumption based on 1 hour don't forget) his only Axcc is AJcc cause we block AQcc and AKcc... so you're losing to exactly 1 combo of AJcc that checked the flop, and a nit might not even raise AJcc pre! So we actually want villain to be a nit.

This ^^^

Given the preflop action you'd probably be surprised how many worse flushes this guy can have...

Forget about typing players and worrying about him having the one hand that beats you. He's never folding a flush here and has way more non nut flushes than nutted hands.

Arrrr-in
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:29 PM   #12
Jamlana
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

Results: Hero just called the $60

Villian had the KKs

he thought his Kings won and took his 60 back and didn't realize my KQ made the 2nd nut flush...smh ..his reponse was "wow you had a flush?!you saved me a lot of money" >.>
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:46 PM   #13
twitcherroo
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

Quote:
Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
It's only $25 but it's still a pot sized bet.
$25 is a PSB OTT because the flop checked through. That's a large part of the point here. If H had wagered on the flop then she could better her chips in on the turn. If you're going to check flop, which I think is terrible, then you absolutely have to raise the turn. How the hell else are you going to play for stacks here? I don't get it. Big hand = put chips into pot. People F this up all the time.
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:04 AM   #14
UntimelyBluff
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

Lol whoa take it easy fellas she said she’s new to poker. But yeah I don’t think I need to weigh in here on what should have been done since Everyone has done that already, but as a general rule of thumb don’t feel like you’re forced to make decisions quickly, spend a little extra time double checking your have and try refrain from making snap decisions at the poker table, as it makes you easier to be read when faced with a difficult decision.
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:29 AM   #15
monikrazy
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Re: 1/2 2nd nut flush vs a nit betting all streets

River is a mandatory raise, checking the flop can be ok

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