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Old 04-07-2014, 07:49 PM   #76
Lapidator
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

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It's just that there are much easier pickings at the table, and a big hand against each other will be very high variance, so if the +EV line isn't obvious, we probably take the lower variance of the decent options.
And yet, in this hand, V takes the highest variance line preflop (flatting with the top of his range OTB), and then takes the highest variance line OTF (min-raising as a bluff).

Now that all the details are out, this hand makes no sense at all.

If V had a set, the raise makes no sense -- why risk letting H off the hook if there is history that should tell him he's beat? H came out and bet almost pot on a drawy flop -- if you've got a set, you've got him right where you want him, and you've got position -- flat and risk a scary turn, IMO. Don't raise here and risk blowing him off his hand.

If V has nothing, then the min-raise OTF is supposed to be a bluff against an opponent with whom there is lots of history? Meanwhile giving great odds to continue? It just doesn't make sense. The min raise basically just means that V is ultra-polarized -- and calling is right in either case.

I feel like H should have considered this in real time and could never have found a fold here. H should have known that V wouldn't play a set this way, and couldn't have KK+ based on preflop action (or is this wrong? Is it possible that AKPD is flatting with KK+?)...

H's line makes total sense until he folds. There were lots of "reads" posted on how "H has like 20% equity vs. V's range". Clearly, that's bogus. AKPD was just trolling the thread. Given a more reasonable range assigned to V, there's no way folding QQ could be correct.

FFS, its $188:53, 3.5:1 in immediate odds. V's "value" line makes no sense and we're getting a pretty good price to see the turn. Granted, H is OOP, but continuing in any way is going to slow V down unless he has either exactly TT or makes his flush OTT.

Even if H puts V on Jc9c exactly, we can flat the flop raise, fade a bad turn and easily get another big bet in. The pot OTT will be $241 with just $195 left in stacks.

This thread just doesn't make any sense to me.

The most confusing to me is: Why is it a shove or fold spot OTF after V min-raises?

If V's range is X and (1-X); where the X part wants H to shove, and the (1-X) part wants H to fold, then how is just flat calling, with strong SDV, bad?
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Old 04-07-2014, 07:56 PM   #77
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

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And yet, in this hand, V takes the highest variance line preflop (flatting with the top of his range OTB), and then takes the highest variance line OTF (min-raising as a bluff).
What, what?

Did you not read the rest of the thread? IMO, the most likely part of his range here is sets, and he's trying to induce with a weird raise size. Second most likely is that it's a weird semi-bluff and he's trying to level me or add something new into his game. In either case, I've seen no evidence that V is at the top of his range pre. 88,TT and 55 are all standard flats here. Suited broadway is also pretty common.

Where do you get the idea that he "takes the highest variance line OTF (min-raising as a bluff)?" Did V text you his holding? I certainly didn't see it ITT.
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Old 04-07-2014, 07:59 PM   #78
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

at first that's why i thought the hand was interesting-- you two (stand alone winners) are discussing strat/ hands in games you frequently play AND are playing hard against each other

... but then ace said you two generally stay out of each others way/ avoid tough spots-- which makes the hand boring since it makes flop an easy fold.

you have a huge edge because you know information about the second/first best player in the game that other players aren't privy to, because they aren't included in your guys strat discussions. you two are able to avoid quite a bit of variance/ tough spots because of this advantage. combined with the fact that you guys are both stand alone winners= huge edge.

I couldn't care less about what other players in the game are discussing because i assume they're fish/ losers. they can talk all the stupid strat they want, no problem here.

why don't you ask your friendly donators how they feel. tell them you and ace are both stand alone winners, discuss (valuable winning) strat amongst yourselves, which leads to you two avoiding tough spots, and ends with stress free stack the donator poker
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:24 PM   #79
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

I'm laughing very hard right now. People who know each other and talk strat away from the table should not play at the same table or it's colluding. Don't ever play a tournament... I heard they are buying/staking/trading action in those things. By the way the players at this game probably talk more strat than Garick and I do. Just so happens we are 20 levels ahead. At a table of 10 people where 8 are fish and two are competent... Yeah, the best strat is to avoid the competent and go after the fish. Sharks don't eat other sharks.
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:26 PM   #80
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

I have rarely been so tempted to use a BBV epithet.
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:30 PM   #81
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

They're not playing together. But then again, they're not playing against each other either. It's like the Nature Channel. You don't see piranhas eating each other, do you?
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:34 PM   #82
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Fwiw, I just texted Garick the following (hopefully not collusion):

Colluder!!!!! You scumbag POS who knows how to play poker!!!

Also, WP Andees.
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:34 PM   #83
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Well, sometimes. When the other piranha is wounded, and can't fight back as well...
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:35 PM   #84
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

sorry you're offended. there's a huge difference between discussing strat with the other best player and avoiding spots, and not discussing strat and having an unspoken agreement to not get into hairy spots. huge difference.

just think you two might have crossed the line. ask your friendly local donators how they feel
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:39 PM   #85
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

If we had some sort of agreement, unspoken or not, do you think I would have even had a question about this hand?
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:47 PM   #86
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

I won't shut the thread down because it will look like I'm trying to sweep something under the rug, I am not. I'm very comfortable with who I am as a person and a poker player. I will say this, if you called me a cheater to my face I'd probably smack the beard off your face (calm down, this is not a threat). With that said, the players in our game very well know that Garick and I talk strat and they approach us a lot looking for our thoughts. Speaking for myself I am pretty respected in the game and people have fun. I'm a hoot when I'm winning and it's fun to laugh at me when I'm losing. I would feel more than comfortable having anyone from that game read this thread. That's up to them to find this forum though.
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Old 04-07-2014, 08:50 PM   #87
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Funniest thing is I have not revealed my hand. Maybe this one time I did level 3 the eff out of Garick....
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:13 PM   #88
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

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Funniest thing is I have not revealed my hand. Maybe this one time I did level 3 the eff out of Garick....
Dude...

AKPD... How is it that I'm the only one who sees this?
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:22 PM   #89
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

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Dude...

AKPD... How is it that I'm the only one who sees this?
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Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Would be weird for him to nearly minraise two pair or a set on a wet board with a lot of action killing turn cards. I would probably just jam it in over his raise. If he flopped a set good for him. Would expect to see a big draw more often than a made hand.
^^^

If he's got it, give the man your money...or suck out on him.
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:45 PM   #90
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

I think lapi has been waiting for me to say this... But what's the K for?
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:48 PM   #91
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

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FWIW, the coaching part only played a small part in this entire equation. What more so played into the equation was something I had just read right before hero got there.... Which I misapplied according to coach. LOL @ me. However, my thinking about the rest of the hand was ok because I was against Garick.

Garick's and my history has always pretty much been stay out of each others way. Not colluding, but not get into tough spots. Whenever we have gotten the money in against each other it has pretty much been cooler hands. My set vs his top set, my flush vs his smaller flush, etc etc. The only time I can recall Garick getting it in light vs me was a Q9 hand that I bet/4bet (or maybe he bet, I 3bet, he shoved I called... either way) against him. For some reason he thought I was showing up super light there and I wasn't. He ran into nearly the bottom of my range against him, which was AK.

I will say that I knew I put Garick into a fold or shove spot OTF. Garick was never flatting me there except for when he held the nuts which was a set, but even then he may just elect to shove and chalk it up a cooler if I had some super combo and drawn out on him.
So you had AK in this hand, ITT, too? Right?

(FWIW, I think Siculamente is out of his f'n mind.)

Last edited by Lapidator; 04-07-2014 at 11:11 PM. Reason: APD was bluffing.
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:03 PM   #92
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

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They're not playing together. But then again, they're not playing against each other either. It's like the Discovery Channel. You don't see piranhas eating each other, do you?
FYP
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:11 PM   #93
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

I didn't mean to derail this thread.

in regards to what i said earlier-- i think it's something every winning poker player should think about. I think fish can do whatever, winners can't. If you asked/ or explained to a fish the scenario about winning regulars privately discussing hands/ strategies concerning a specific lineup/ player in a small player pool, they (the fish) would feel cheated. And whether or not anyone here will admit it, it kinda is.I've been guilty of it, and I strive to not make the same mistakes.

years ago I played in a home game, got buddy buddy with the best/ second best player at the table, discussed strat/ hands/ players whatever, and the game eventually died cause people didn't want to play vs both of us.

garick- sorry i derailed, your thread isn't about collusion, it's about a specific hand. I apologize.


if you folded, it's a good play, V isn't getting out of line enough for this to be anything other than a fold.

i'll shut up now, gl.
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:19 PM   #94
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

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homegame stuff...
Come over to The Chat Thread...
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