Think the big question here is if he raises OESDs or wider. If he does then it's a ship. If not fold. Flatting is the worst option of the 3.

I don't think V raises bare OESDs here, unless he has new strat from his coach. If he does, I think he raises them bigger, unless there is some serious meta going on and he's pulling a level 3 move on me.

I see it the other way around. If V does decide to raise OESD it'll be with a small sizing so he can maneuver on flush turns and rivers and so he's not committed and forced to call off since OESDs aren't doing well against your gii range.

That seems backwards to me. If he's going for FE, he'd want max. Plus if he holds a bare OESD, that puts a lot more strong hands in my range, due to no blockers. Is this a thing people do, to raise a 4/5-pot c-bet small with an OESD on a flushing board multi-way? I've not run into it before.

i think his sizing is fine, and i dont really see a reason why he would have multiple raise sizes here. how he constructs his raising range here should largely be determined by what he thinks your strategy will be. if he thinks you are mostly going to fold/shove with your air, overpairs, and draws, then i think hed be better off using oesds and gutshots, whereas if he believes you are more likely to call with a lot of your range, then hed be better off using his stronger combo/flush draws. since you have a lot of history with him, you probably have some idea of how he believes you will play your overpairs to a raise on a board like this (also, if he's actually good, folding is probably out of the question, and assigning him a range so tight that we should fold QQ to a raise is probably a mistake). how often you cbet with just overs (and how often he perceives that you will) probably should also be determinative of how many draws he raises with here.

i also dont think that calling is as bad as people seem to think. you will have good visibility on turns, and if he is prone to bluff shove turns a lot you can get it in way further ahead.

him having a coaching session with a new coach recently is probably an underrated factor here as well, and i would guess he is being more aggressive in this spot than normal.

Well after thinking about it he's probably going to just flat OESDs because raising small doesn't have much FE and raising larger makes him committed against a shove. But if I were to put a bet on which one is more likely, a small raise or a large raise, I would say the small raise is more likely.

I also think he would raise larger with a combo draw for max FE and since he doesn't mind gii against a shove. Also think he would flat NFDs to get the fish to come along with worse draws.

So based on the likelihood of him flatting OESDs, raising larger with combo draws, and flatting NFDs I would say his range is heavily skewed towards value and a fold is best.

I'm not raising you there AcKc-AcJc... why kill my equity when I know your only move is fold or shove... Ooops.. did I just out myself...

Nah, I knew that V was Keyser Soze after post 1, ADP.

'Cause FE?

What do you think of my perceived range?

Your range is strong. I know you have an over pair a huge porting of the time.

Basically you're raising with a set to induce?

(That was my thinking after discussion a bunch of posts back).

Alright, I see your point. Though not sure if I would always remove over-cards+flush from raising range here, your logic does make sense.

So If I adjust my range with the new info to a super range for you of: {AcTh,AcTd,TT,88,55,7c9c}
Hero has 23% equity. Adding in 10% Air only brings us to 33%....

Yeah, that makes a fold more convincing. But I just don't think at the able I would be able to exclude that many drawing hands from your range. I personally would re-raise here with strong drawing hand + overs some of the time.

I guess what I mean is I know I am capable of making a mistake there and folding if you shoved on me. I am not a math whiz on the table and had you shoved and I was holding AcXc I may have folded because I wouldn't be sure if I was getting the right odds.

(BTW, I just did the math and if I was holding AcKc-AcJc I should be calling it off... I'm just not putting myself into that spot though)

At this point, I think TTHRIC.

Results, for those who care: Hero tanks, mostly because of this.
and

FWIW, the coaching part only played a small part in this entire equation. What more so played into the equation was something I had just read right before hero got there.... Which I misapplied according to coach. LOL @ me. However, my thinking about the rest of the hand was ok because I was against Garick.

Garick's and my history has always pretty much been stay out of each others way. Not colluding, but not get into tough spots. Whenever we have gotten the money in against each other it has pretty much been cooler hands. My set vs his top set, my flush vs his smaller flush, etc etc. The only time I can recall Garick getting it in light vs me was a Q9 hand that I bet/4bet (or maybe he bet, I 3bet, he shoved I called... either way) against him. For some reason he thought I was showing up super light there and I wasn't. He ran into nearly the bottom of my range against him, which was AK.

I will say that I knew I put Garick into a fold or shove spot OTF. Garick was never flatting me there except for when he held the nuts which was a set, but even then he may just elect to shove and chalk it up a cooler if I had some super combo and drawn out on him.

If I recall that hand correctly, I opened from the button, you 3! from the BB for the umpteenth time that night that you'd 3! my opens, I 4-bet "re-bluffed" and then realized when you shoved that effective stacks were such that I had to call your shove, even though I knew I was a complete dog to your range. Oops.

Grunch.

Really like the min raise here by villain, him min raising with a fish in the middle of you and him is forcing you to play straight up in this spot.

Definitely fine with a fold here.

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There is no one in the middle of us.

BTW... I raised to $93... Get it right, sucka (Garick).

Gah, thought Hero was utg, misread the "BTN,BB nit part"

Still finding a fold here.

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then it makes it a v easy fold for hero. thought the reason why he posted the hand was cause they were playing back at each other a bit.

and if you guys are discussing hands/ strat in private/ off the table + regularly playing in the same game+ staying out of each others way= i think it's a form of collusion (only because both of you are stand alone winners)

You never stay out of another good players way? I avoid Garick in close spots, tough decisions, doesn't mean I don't play against him. Don't take it out of context. I play everyone at the table accordingly.

We each have stacked the other in non-nuts vs near-nuts confrontations. I suspect APD is protesting a bit too much here to keep his FE high.

It's just that there are much easier pickings at the table, and a big hand against each other will be very high variance, so if the +EV line isn't obvious, we probably take the lower variance of the decent options.

i'm not the best poker player, i dont actively seek out spots to play with good players. i do if i have a good reason to.

i like discussing strat/ hands but it's done anon, i'm not discussing strat with regular winners in my games, or actively seeking to do so.

think about it. if two players are stand alone winners, aren't active friends off the table, frequently play in the same games, privately discuss strat/ hands, and don't play hard/ use the strat against each other, then they both have a huge edge against their player pool.

What makes you think we're not using the strat against each other? Was that not what this hand was?

It's just that the strat that is good against most of the folks we play against (value bet mercilessly with TPGK+, take advantage of bad betsizing to draw profitably) isn't the strat that's any good against the other.

Sorry, but I don't see this as any form of collusion. Yes, we have a huge edge, but that's because we study the game, including our Vs. Other parts of our pool discuss poker together too, it's just not focused or, imo, particularly valuable study.