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Old 04-05-2014, 01:39 AM   #1
Garick
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1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

1/1 8-handed home game with effective stacks about $300 with multiple Vs.

Main V and I have a TON of history.. He i and I are very close in skill, though he i s a touch more LAGy. V has just had a coaching session with a well known coach and seems to be more aggro on his buttons than usual.

Rest of Vs are gambooly window lickers, with the exception of one nit.

Hero is very well known to main V who reads all my 2+2 posts and discusses strategy with me often. He knows that I have a fold button, but also that I am suspicious of his IP raises when we are HU.

Two limps to Hero, who makes it $10 with red Queens.

Main V flats.OTB. BB nit (who is basically always set.mining here and will almost always donking if she hits) flats. Both gambooly limpers call to try to crack me.

Pot: $51
Flop Tc 8c 5d.

Checks to Hero, who bets $42. Main V raises to $95. Folds to hero who???

V knows that none of the other Vs is likely to check 2p+ on a board that wet, but that they'll c/c any 8+ out draws if he flats.

Last edited by AcePlayerDeluxe; 04-05-2014 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:26 AM   #2
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

What history do you have with villain of him essentially min raising you?
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:33 AM   #3
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Call.

Any premium hand 3bets pre. Maybe even TT?

He puts a lot of Broadway's in your range. Easy to whiff that flop and its not out of the question you might fold a T.

Easy for him to whiff too.

This is such an autoraise I'm not sure i would try to over interpret it. Just call.
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:04 AM   #4
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

hard to figure who's where... V is on the button... right?
where's hero... SB? or CO?

why the small pfr?
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:06 AM   #5
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Hero is CO. 10x is a small raise?
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:24 AM   #6
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If your read is that V has a set here most often, then flat and x/eval turn.

But if he can be screwing around with a draw or like A+pair then I like a raise back to make him commit. Although... Not much room to maneuver.

IMO, sounds like this 1/1 game plays more like 1/2. And as such you're really just 150bb deep. This spot is an easy stack-off for 150bb if we have the right read on villain.
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:30 AM   #7
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

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Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Hero is CO. 10x is a small raise?
if you were oop, yeah. But here, maybe that's okay.
I understand you're playing in a 1/1 home game - but in our 1/2 casino games - our PFRs start at 6x and go up to 15x. With a smart guy on your left looking to give you trouble, I'd make him put in at least 12x or more to play with you.

Besides, you've got $4 of dead money in the pot, eff. stacks are 300bb - and you've got QQ. It's time to start building a pot... right?

Flop is: T 8 5

Since we're in the CO and V is the button, so we're HU now... right?

You haven't given V a range - and it sounds like you're thinking he's making a move (in position). If he's playing wide open, there are a TON of cards that hurt us... such as 4, 6, 7, 9, J, A and any club. He can have anywhere from 8 to 17 outs. Yuk!

Pot is $188

I'm not sure what his min raise means. Fish at our table do this with the nuts. Experienced regs do this to see where they're at.

If his min raise is to say, "your AK is no good" - then I'm repopping him... since you've only got about 250 left, it's got to be AI.
And if he's got TT, 88 or 55, then gg.

Other wise, I guess it's a fold.

This probably doesn't help at all, does it?
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:42 AM   #8
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

I have a range, but I want to let discussion for a bit. I guarantee that he is not raising to see where he's at. This is never TP for value here, it's real value, a semi bluff or air (including a small chance of knowingly turning TP into a bluff).

As for pre, 12 is pretty much the.max that I can get called in a non-straddled, two limpers pot.
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Old 04-05-2014, 05:11 AM   #9
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

This is one of the worse boards in the world for QQ: 76, 79 and J9 are all possible button-calling hands. T8 is also a reasonable hand - as is TT, 88 and 55. (I doubt button would ever reraise pre in position with TT because he only gets called by better hands.) And if they're suited, we're in a world of hurt %-wise.

The only hands we dominate are hands from the T-clan... JT, KT and AT. (QT is highly unlikely). And it's sounds like you don't think that's a big part of his game.

You stated that V probably raised to prevent other players from drawing. Yet it was just a min raise... it sounds like he's got a made hand that he doesn't want cracked by other players.

It's 50 more to us (more or less) - leaving us with one PSB on the turn.
If we're not getting it in, he's likely to do so.

Since you're saying he's not messing around... then his min raise is probably trying to induce us to shove (while folding out the other players).

If we were deeper, I'd peel one off and re-evaluate the turn. But as played - and based on your reads on the V - it's probably time to give it our best Gus Hanson shrug and muck.
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Old 04-05-2014, 05:46 AM   #10
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Holy hell this HH looks like ass. That's what I get for posting at the table on my phone. Couldn't give the post the attention it deserves.

Further info on V. V reads this forum, and we have discussed strategy before. V has likely read pretty much all of my strat posts. He certainly knows that I am not c-betting air into 4 callers at this table. He likely ranges me for AT, TT+, and AcJc-AcKc if he doesn't have Ac himself , with discounted 55, 88 and 99. How he expects me to respond to his raise with various parts of my range is less clear.
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Old 04-05-2014, 07:58 AM   #11
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Browsed thru op real quickly, but my gut instinct is to jam here
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Old 04-05-2014, 09:37 AM   #12
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Grunching … will read other feedback afterward.

Think it is clearly a fold or raise. Calling may not iso and we are oop, making the turn very difficult to play after putting 35% of stack in (after calling). Folding seems super-weak in this spot, so I’d opt to raise.

Sizing depends on the V post flop tendencies. Specifically, is he laggy enough to 4-bet shove a draw; shove a blank turn? If so we are likely committed. Does he have a fold button post?

Since he is a thinking player our image is an important factor. Will he multi-level, thinking you could 4-bet AK here, or does your 3-b usually mean the goods from his perspective? If not, a raise folds worse.

His raising range: sets/2-pr (T8)/TP/club draws/76/97/air (over cards). His raise sizing seems weak for a solid hand like 2-pr or a set. We also do not hold a club, so a bit more likely of him having a FD.

There is $188 in the pot and we have $248 behind, so yes, awkward. Calling would make the pot $241, so I’d lean toward AI IF the opponent can overplay draws.
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:04 AM   #13
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Given your updated description of villain this is a clear fold.

Eventual you'll need to make some sort of adjustment to prevent him from exploiting you.

Thus... Do you think this hand is time to adjust yet? Or can you fold here knowing V expects you to be strong and yet he's still raising...
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:12 AM   #14
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This might be a spot where we can bias villain's range slightly stronger since he cannot have AcTc and Ac8c.
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:31 AM   #15
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Fold

Villain almost never has total air IMO

He knows you have an overpair here every time because you're not cbetting AK here. I don't think he'd try to get you off an overpair with a minraise.

He could be raising small with a set or 2p to sucker in one of the fish behind him
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:44 AM   #16
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Best guess range for me looks like this:

Board: Tc 8c 5d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.268% 28.22% 00.05% 5588 9.00 { QdQh }
Hand 1: 71.732% 71.69% 00.05% 14194 9.00 { TT, 88, 55, QcJc, Qc9c, Jc9c, T8s, 9c7c, 7c6c, 7c5c, 6c5c, 5c4c }


---

Would expect main V to flat his NFD/2NFD to allow inferior draws in behind, while raising combo draws and pair + weak FD. I want to believe OP when he says there is potential for air in V's range, but raising with the field of droolers left to act (minus nit who apparently donks everything worth continuing) on this board makes me want to ignore it entirely.

Is V the type to ever slow down on a blank turn if called and checked to? Raise size is pretty indicative of wanting to see two cards for the price of one small raise or maximizing FE for smallest risk.
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:18 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
I have a range, but I want to let discussion for a bit. I guarantee that he is not raising to see where he's at. This is never TP for value here, it's real value, a semi bluff or air (including a small chance of knowingly turning TP into a bluff).

As for pre, 12 is pretty much the.max that I can get called in a non-straddled, two limpers pot.
I don't think it's a semibluff due to his sizing . I also don't think it's air for same reason as well as the fact that it's not HU.
@Garick how does he perceive you to play clubs on the flop? Is your perceived range really as transparent as TT+, AJs+ in this position preflop?

It's close...It looks like V is trying to keep the bottom of your value range intact with his raise sizing but I want to see what your perceived range is preflop coming in with a raise (sizing?) in this position
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Old 04-05-2014, 12:40 PM   #18
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Read the thread now, changes for sure.

OP has a tight range and has cbet in a 5-way pot. Opponent knows OP to have a fold button however OP line is very strong so far.

Nevertheless, V likely believes OP will fold AT/JJ perhaps QQ/KK though somewhat influenced if OP has a club. Can we say slightly over the half combos in OP range may fold here?

If we assume that, the opponent move as a semi-bluff or with air, needs to work ~1 in 2 x. This is multi-way however and b/c of stack sizes OP may 4-bet with top of range (TT/88/AcAx/AcJc+).

Being oop, 300 bbs deep to start, and resistance to OP strong line multi-way, there is enough value in his range for me to fold to his strange (size) raise.
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Old 04-05-2014, 01:38 PM   #19
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Probably fold since the bottom of his range is semi bluffs and he probably flats NFD and his sizing seems valuey and there are tons of turns and rivers that will either improve his range or he can use as bluff cards.
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:57 PM   #20
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Quote:
Originally Posted by endodocdc View Post
I want to see what your perceived range is preflop coming in with a raise (sizing?) in this position... Is your perceived range really as transparent as TT+, AJs+ in this position preflop?
I work hard at not changing my open sizing based on strength of hand with any decent players left to act (if V is out of hand before I act, this could change), but I do change it based on position, number of limpers, and how sticky the limpers are, so I might have perceived bet-sizing tells for V. If so, this open is a tad bigger than my average, but opens to 12 are pretty common for me, so I doubt V is reading anything much into the sizing.

Given the V's who limped in early position, one of whom will almost always L/C, V could def think I'm iso-ing a bit on the light side, but ahead of the drooler's l/c range. Pre he probably ranges me to something like 88+, ATo+, KQo, JTs-KQs.

Quote:
@Garick how does he perceive you to play clubs on the flop?
V has seen me c-bet (and barrel) NFDs and combo-draws before. A lot of these window lickers will overpay for dominated draws. There aren't really any combo draws in my perceived opening range, but if V doesn't have the Ac himself, I'm pretty sure he has it in my range. He may put a few combos of FD+overs in my range that aren't NFD as well (e.g. KcQc, KcJc, QcJc).

BTW, V is almost certainly reading this thread. I'll leave it to him to decide if he wants to out himself. For all that he's a friend, I would never post this much on the meta-game between us if I weren't moving away soon.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:28 PM   #21
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

if its real or a semi bluff like you mentioned, then it's a fold. not even close.

his mr is pretty lol but given stack sizes and your huge cb, its ok.


i wouldn't bet so big ip

edit: i didn't see v was otb. which makes it interesting cuz if v was thinking, he should call most/ all value hands ip with fish left to act... so his raise ip looks fos/ him trying to maximize fe with a draw+ using your huge cb sizing agaisnt you

Last edited by Siculamente; 04-05-2014 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:53 PM   #22
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
I work hard at not changing my open sizing based on strength of hand with any decent players left to act (if V is out of hand before I act, this could change), but I do change it based on position, number of limpers, and how sticky the limpers are, so I might have perceived bet-sizing tells for V. If so, this open is a tad bigger than my average, but opens to 12 are pretty common for me, so I doubt V is reading anything much into the sizing.

Given the V's who limped in early position, one of whom will almost always L/C, V could def think I'm iso-ing a bit on the light side, but ahead of the drooler's l/c range. Pre he probably ranges me to something like 88+, ATo+, KQo, JTs-KQs.


V has seen me c-bet (and barrel) NFDs and combo-draws before. A lot of these window lickers will overpay for dominated draws. There aren't really any combo draws in my perceived opening range, but if V doesn't have the Ac himself, I'm pretty sure he has it in my range. He may put a few combos of FD+overs in my range that aren't NFD as well (e.g. KcQc, KcJc, QcJc).

BTW, V is almost certainly reading this thread. I'll leave it to him to decide if he wants to out himself. For all that he's a friend, I would never post this much on the meta-game between us if I weren't moving away soon.
I really don't think villain has a weak value range here (JJ, AT) , or even a semi-bluffing range. Reason is purely based on his raise sizing. Villain is aware that there is a fish sandwiched between you two who is calling>>>>folding. Knowing this, he just isn't going to min-raise flop as a semi-bluff, especially since he "knows" you have a decent value range here.
But, let's go with that for now. Let's assume V has a semi-bluff range. The bottom of that semi-bluff range will be a 12 outer. So if you're flipping against the weakest part of his semi-bluff range and are toast against his strong value range, this becomes an easier fold.

IMO, I'd fold flop.

This would be different if it was HU and if we had position on villain. But oop, you can't raise his flop raise (you have no idea what he has) and you can't call his flop raise because you don't have initiative on turn and he can control the action on various turn cards and we still have no idea where we are at.
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Old 04-05-2014, 05:44 PM   #23
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Would be weird for him to nearly minraise two pair or a set on a wet board with a lot of action killing turn cards. I would probably just jam it in over his raise. If he flopped a set good for him. Would expect to see a big draw more often than a made hand.
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Old 04-05-2014, 05:46 PM   #24
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
BTW, V is almost certainly reading this thread. I'll leave it to him to decide if he wants to out himself. For all that he's a friend, I would never post this much on the meta-game between us if I weren't moving away soon.
There's a tough lesson to be learned here: Don't talk strategy with with other regulars.

I used to play at a home game with an advance player who would sometimes let his girlfriend play. Since he was teaching her how to play, when she would be at the table - she would play back at him by check/raising or 3-betting in certain spots that several of us noticed. (And when he would fold, she'd say something like "That's what I thought!" implying that he was making plays with total air.) Soon, we were picking up on how his range was quite wider than we thought and betting with nothing most of the time - and armed with this information, we all began playing back at him and winning more.

There's a reason a lot of veteran players still lurk but rarely post on 2+2 anymore - the more you give away your playing style - the more exploitable you become.

Because of this, I think it's nearly impossible for anyone to accurately advise whether to fold, call or shove. There's just too much undocumented history to properly evaluate what's really going on here.
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Old 04-05-2014, 07:20 PM   #25
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Re: 1/1 deep, overpair face near min-raise OTF

LAGy competent Villian OTB, makes me inclined to consider a shove over his bet.

His range should be weighted to a lot of semi-bluff flush/straight draws, possible AcXc, (Ac8, AcT ?weak offsuits questionable?) Ac5c pair+draw hand, PPs: (TT+ probably 3-bets pre?) 88, 55, SC: KQc, QJc, T9, T8, 89, 97
Though the Tc does take A lot of his flush combos out of the picture.

I'm feeling you've got to have close to 50% equity here, the pot is about 60% of your stack. I'd strongly consider shoving over his raise.
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