Local Ford dealership has $59k 2018 Shelby marked at $81,900 :tears:
$34k Mercedes C or $35k Alfa Romero Guilia prob better choices anyway

Wow that's a crazy markup from MSRP (happens rarely and usually for much lower %). The car must be pretty sick to drive, I don't know anything about it. Don't know anything about Alfa Romeo, would like to hear what you thought if you did a test drive.

For any luxury brand entry level model (which I think the C class is), you are usually paying big premium for the brand name. It's usually a car for women - something husbands buy their wives/gf when the brand conscious wife/gf "wants a Mercedes/BMW/Lexus" and doesn't care about anything else. And nothing wrong w that. It's cheaper than buying an S class if brand is important.

Once luxury manufacturers (esp the germans) realized how much more brand conscious a large segment of the population had become like 15 yrs ago (they should be paying royalties to an OG of this thought movement and a young lady I had the pleasure of dancing with one night at Pure in '06 - Paris Hilton) and that banks/people collaborated in scoffing at credit/accumulation of debt issues, they started lowering the standards of their entry-level models to be more accessible. Stuff like the A3 or BMW 128 etc. is how far it's come.

I think mistake they made w Doug was trying to put him into buying mode (in somewhat desperate manner it sounds) before taking care of the first step for any potential customer - selection. If initial visit was a fact-finding mission, they should act accordingly and call the prospect in a few days and thank them for their recent visit and ask if there's any other questions you may have. What they did is the equivalent of proposing a threesome to someone on their first date and it rarely leads to a sale.

Talking about the Lamborghini bit? That was a little amusing to hear about.

I appreciate the input on paying a premium for a brand's entry level model. The vehicle still has to operate and reflect the luxury automaker's standard though, no? Will let you know about the test drive(s).

The lambo thing went over my head tbh. Which part was that?

The thing w the luxury brands is that they’ve been able to get away w not always putting out entry level cars that meet their historical standards, by doing things such as substituting pleather for real leather, or not including other items in their entry level that used to be standard before this shift. The Alfa Romeo is interesting cuz they haven’t been in USA market for a while until recently and idk what category they are in.

Some of the exotics have started to mimic what the luxury brands did. Maserati stands out in my mind as one of the exotics thats started making like an 80k car iirc. Maybe Bentley put out something more accessible too, in recent years. Appreciate the feedback from test drives esp Alfa gl

Note that a $34k MB "C" is not a C class, it's a CLA. Completely different line that's front wheel drive. A C class is $40k+.

Yeah I see that the base CLA is a bit of a cheaper vehicle. I can take advantage of a bait car with a sticker price of $34k. If I go the lease route again, would be content getting the cap cost down to $32.5k.

In more amusing news, the unscrupulous I mean fine people at Grieco Ford dropped the listed Shelby price to only $11k above what anyone should pay for it.

https://www.griecofordoffortlauderda...6P8JZ8J5502427

The Subaru people finally went under the no haggle price. Wonder what I'm missing. Cold, rainy month with no foot traffic?

On the luxury brands, don’t you have to be concerned about service and repair costs being high? Not knowing for sure, but thinking a honda mechanic works on an acura and is reasonable. A mercades or jaguar place always nutty?

2018 models should be cheap(er) right now. A lot with 40 2018 leftovers of the model you are looking for should be cheap(er). If there are manufacturer incentives on the model, that will help too. truecar.com used to be pretty good, but I heard recently it's not as accurate.

I used truecar to buy a new car in 2014, it was great. I recently bought a used car and it was okay, like middle of the pack. I also used edmunds and liked it a lot, plus the top 5-6 search sites that came up in Google. A lot of stuff is cross-listed.

Yeah you went at the right time of month at right time of year. In places where weather matters, the leanest months for the stores are November and February. Also, Subaru stores don’t have a 1 price mandate like some used franchises/Tesla/Saturn, but they can implement a no-haggle or “live market price” model and just break from form when they feel like it (which prob can’t be too often cuz word spreads). So their read on you must’ve been “serious buyer, shopping us, and expects good value”. That’s a good image to have, whether it’s correct or not.

Luxury brands (esp Germans) have higher service costs bc parts, computer, and training technicians is much more expensive. The Germans have fought back against that service sticker shock by throwing in a lot of free service for the first 36 mos. That helps their sales dept kill two birds w one stone, as they can further incentivize a lease (and sell a car every 36 months), while touting the luxury “experience” for the duration

Heard the same about truecar as you folks. This is why I think consumers don’t like truecar as much now:

First, truecar starts putting out a consumer-friendly pricing service. Then, manufacturers didn’t appreciate their pricing data hitting the internet (and the way that every consumer accessing truecar wants to get a better deal than avg). So they pressured truecar to be more dealer-friendly in return for ad buys or something.

Always good deals on leftovers. Where are the best deals? (Ranked from decent value to best value) imo

1. Leftovers w standard rebates/dealer cash/incentives
2. And aren’t popular colors/trim level/model
3. And that are the last year of that body style
4. And this holy grail of leftovers will have strong correlation w #2. Leftovers that the manufacturers have not only incentivized to the public. They’re most importantly, leftovers that the manufacturers have incentivized privately, to the individual dealerships, via contests.

If there is an ‘18 that did especially poorly, manufacturers will use a formula that takes into account how many units each dealership in the zone sold and say to each store, via an internal bulletin: for all dealerships in zone 5A that do 70% of last years volume on this model over the same period (usually 2 months that overlap the release of the new model), each owner will receive $15k and a trip to Tahiti and $10k will be given to the owner to distribute to deserving sales managers.

So the sales managers are willing to write deals that make no sense to the customer. It’s bc the customer doesn’t realize that the sales mgr who just wrote a 5k loser (of which they will personally lose like $100 in real money), stands to make $5k in real money if he can sell just 4 of these models over 2 months. These contests are usually all-or-nothing.

If you catch a sales manager at the end of one of these contests, when they only have to sell 1 more unit to make the bonus, there is no other car in inventory that will offer close to this value - provided you want this car. When shopping for leftovers it never hurts to ask the sales managers, “Hey, now that the 19s are here in full force, do you guys have any of those internal contests running on any 18s that could turn a decent value into an extraordinary value for both of us?” DONT mention in front of salesperson, as they don’t get these bulletins or bonuses and are kept in the dark about these contests.

If the manager seems confused (which would make sense cuz public not supposed to know about these contests) just be real specific about what you’re getting at. And also take into consideration why the model performed so poorly and how long the particular car has been sitting on the lot. Most 18s are long gone by now and I’m guessing the contests are over until early ‘19 (usually 2 of these contests per year at Honda/Acura, not sure about other brands).

Another funny dealer story. So I make a deal over the phone with a pretty shady Mitsubishi dealer that had a bad rep. My buddy and I show up at the dealer to pick up the car, and they basically jack up the price $1k and refuse to give me the agreed upon price.

My buddy goes ballistic and starts yelling super-loud in the middle of the showroom floor how "they're a bunch of crooks" and "what kind of BS operation is this place" and "this place is a scam!". Not too surprisingly, the other customers in the place start looking at us like, wtf is going on?

The finance manager comes by and hurriedly escorts out of the building and asks us to be on our way. Probably the only time a customer got kicked out of a car dealership...

Though I doubt Mitsubishi is kicking too many customers out these days, people get thrown out at least a few times a year at most stores. Theres two types of ways to kick someone out. When it’s busy and a family of 5 wants to test drive every car on the lot and are 6 mos away from possibly buying, the manager tells the salesperson (or the experienced salesperson tells the mgr) to “broom” them, so they can focus their attention on people who are waiting for an available salesperson and seem ready to buy. This happens every weekend day.

Best way is to give them one quick test drive and then ask for their feedback before re entering the showroom. Then smile, thank them for coming in, hand them your card, shake their hands, and don’t look back. Usually, customer doesn’t realize they’ve been broomed until they’re sauntering back to their car, a little dazed and confused. Occasionally, there is some futile resistance and they get told a slightly more honest version by a slightly more articulate person. Before Internet reviews, I’ve heard people weren’t broomed so nicely. I’d compare this skill w ending a first date really quickly, in a way that doesn’t leave a salty aftertaste.

When there is a big scene and a customer gets physically removed, that’s always interesting. The last couple times I saw this happen was when a guy wanted to trade in a boat and refused to accept that it wasn’t going to happen; and when a paying customer was told that his money didn’t play, after he directed racist language towards a sales mgr cuz he was frustrated over the wait to see finance mgr. Buying a car can be overwhelming, emotions can run high, and one or both sides can be guilty of being uncivil at times. I think a car dealership could be a good place to film an uncensored reality show.

I learned about Truecar from a dealership.

For my first new car purchase, I had Googled a few invoice prices but hadn't stumbled on any site that could give a quote, so went to the dealership with no real guidelines as to what would be reasonable.

The dealer starts somewhere between invoice and MSRP and I call shenanigans. I actually meant to point out he was over invoice, but he took it to mean he was over the Internet quotes. So he launches into this whole rant about his price is exactly Truecar's, etc, etc. And I just pull out my phone and start noting down all the websites he considered competition.

Ironically, had he been truthful about the first point - being equal to truecar - I probably would have bought from him in person. Or if he had been honest and said he was higher than truecar because the test drives we did added to their costs, I would have been okay paying a small premium to support a local B&M.

Ah Captain, pretty typical of car dealerships. Maybe not the getting asked to leave a la casino security to card counter style, but the tactic of saying one thing on the phone, asking a customer to come into the dealership, and then not honoring what was said on the phone is not at all unusual.

I do have a positive version of this with MB though. I had been dealing with one dealership about 10 miles away from me. Kind of agreed to a deal and was planning on coming back a few days later (same month). Said what am I doing might as well go to the other dealership that's actually a mile or 2 closer to my home anyway. I had already called this dealership and spoken with a sales manager who said they'd beat the other dealership's number. I walked in there and without fanfare the sales manager said, "Yeah, I'll beat it." He put me in touch with a chill salesman, and all seems peachy. Last bonus of note is I got a corporate incentive through something I'm a member of.

Seems like a good thread to post this.

Leased an i3 BMW in September 2017; three year. I DO NOT need this car as I have a Suburban for me and a 328d for my wife (both paid for)

Fast forward to today with life changes have us moving to the mountains of Colorado. Small electric cars don't fair well in (1) the cold and more importantly (2) on snow/ice covered roads. 6 months a year imo in CO.

I haven't read all my contract yet....but basically turning in the i3 early (May) will cost me over $6.5K

Option might be to "upgrade" to a better BMW snow car (X3). If that can be managed in a year lease for under the 6.5K....sounds like the best use of money.

Thoughts?

Help!

Unfortunately, w 36 as standard term lease and 24 mos being the shortest term possible w most manufactures, there’d be no way to pull it off. The day you drive off the lot w a new X3, it could lose 5k+ of its value and the sticker shock of a 1 yr lease is why they are discouraged or not an option, except maybe for wealthy individuals in the country for a limited time, who need a car and dgaf about the price. Exotics seem to offer more of these spots.

There’s only two ways I can think of recouping some or all of the early termination fee, depending on your needs wrt the 3rd car: if you would like to lease an X3 for full 36 mo term, you could trade in your I3. The process is only slightly more complicated than if you traded in the Suburban, but it takes an extra step to ensure you are getting max trade in value. You have leverage bc you’re giving them an opportunity to write a deal. Obv don’t wanna come off desperate - just tell them you’re thinking about it - they should go right into dealmaling mode.

They would appraise the I3 and compare that against their cost to buy it out and you would either have some equity towards a new lease (some of which they would try to take as profit), or you wouldn’t. The only way to determine whether you have equity is to get the best price on the phone for the exact same lease from a couple stores. If the dealer taking the I3 in trade is willing to beat those numbers by a decent margin, you have equity. Best case scenario, you get out of your unwanted lease and into the X3 you want, for cheaper than if you turned it in and then leased the X3, in separate transactions.

The other option is prob more likely to yield a financial gain, but it takes some patience. Assuming you’re way under the mileage, you could finish the lease, but barely put any miles on it. Then, you do a lease buy out, receive title, and sell the I3 w 17k miles (or however many it has), private party, or directly to a bmw store. First, you would want to check what your I3 is selling for. If the lease end buyout price is lower than the market value by 6.5k, you will have access to the I3 for the full term and neutralized the fee (before taking into account the insurance, excise fees, etc).

Both spots require a knowledge of what the I3’s value is, or will be. So there’s some risk you could cost yourself more than the fee if you botch your appraisal. The simplest of the two options is the former bc it’s more easily verifiable whether or not you’re saving money. But if you have no need for a 3rd car then it’s not really an option. My guess is that bc BMW depreciates faster than most brands, you won’t really have much equity in either case. Gl

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I know for a fact that lease-turning-into-another-lease at BMW would release the balance on the first.

In your opinion, what about offering to buy an X3 (couple years used around $30K) at their asking if they take the i3 and absorb the last of the lease?

I think BMW and most manufacturers have a “pull-ahead” program, where you can trade in your lease w 3-6 payments left and pay no penalty, if you lease another car. With over a year left, they’d just roll in the negative equity from the i3 to the new lease. They may have sent a mailer or had a point of contact pitch the no fee upgrade to make it more digestible. It’s 6 in one hand, a half dozen in the other tho, unless I’m mistaken or unaware of recent policy changes.

Your proposal isn’t far off of what I think will get you the most value for that 6.5k. I would make some adjustments. Tell them you want to purchase a car but the early turn in fee is too much to absorb. Most pre owned cars have about an 8-10% profit margin at asking price.

Maybe tell them, “I understand the fee goes to the manufacturer and you couldn’t eat it entirely, but from my POV, it’s a lot of money to light on fire, despite the cause. I’d be willling to buy the X3 for 27k and (finance, buy a warranty, buy service contract - anything that appeals to them that you see value in). I’ll be happy to write positive online reviews for the good service. The fee is still a big downer, but I think I’d be willing to buy the X3 under those circumstances.” If you’ve done service there or referred customers to them, this is the time to remind them of your past and future value. When Red Sox announcer who bought and serviced w us comes into the store to buy another TLX, the owner came down from his office to ensure that we did whatever it took to make him happy bc the announcer might funnel Red Sox fans to us, if his experience was pleasant. We still croaked him in the back end though.

The more your interests align w theirs, the lower the price they will be willing to sell you the car. Ideally, you see value/need to finance, buy warranty, service contract, remote start, bike rack, Simoniz and they take a net zero deal in the front and make up some in the back end. You will always lose the 6.5k if you turn in w 12+ mos left. But you can recoup maybe half of that if you bring enough to the table. And the prices of most of those extras are negotiable, esp the extended warranty.

I’d feel more confident in my advice if I knew the specific conditions/products you require in the X3 deal. I don’t think there’s a way around the fee, but you will have the most leverage w the negotiations after you bring this to their attention, but before you pay it. That way they realize that if they don’t motivate you, they might not see you until 9/20. It’s ok to let them know the general reasons why you’re considering turning in the i3, but don’t let them know it’s a necessity, even if it is. And you don’t need to offer full price. Gl

ty ty ty

I did look at buying the i3 now and using it as a trade-in....but that was silly math.

Thanks for the suggestion to look at extended warr/financing/options as addons to make the deal sweeter for them. I kinda already thought just offering to pay full freight on the X3 if I didn't have a turn-in payoff on the i3 was enough to get them all a_quiver.

Good morning I was hoping to get some advice from the finance/economists/tax/personal finance experts re a lease:

I wasn’t planning on getting another car yet but my friend from where I used to work told me that until tomorrow, Acura has given dealers extra $1,300 in factory-to-dealer cash on TLX A-Spec, as of about 2 weeks ago, bc they need to clear inventory before the ‘20 comes (‘20 same exact body style).

The relevant part is that I could either do a true sign and drive at one price, or do a “one-pay” lease and pay for the 36 months today. It would save me like $750 over the 3 years. Is the one-pay option better from personal finance POV, considering inflation and whatever else matters that I can’t think of, such as tax implications or global economy stuff? Very short notice but I’d appreciate any input thanks

I'm good at the maths so I can help, but I have no idea what a sign and drive versus a one pay lease is. What are the two prices? Are they both leases?

If this is just a time value of money question and one price is $750 cheaper now versus spread over three years, the answer will be pretty easy based on whatever inflation rate you want to use.

I can't see any tax implications. Certain states let you deduct registration fees, but unless you own a business, you can;t deduct much else.

Thanks for your help - it was lazy of me to ask lol. They are both leases and a sign and drive means that you can walk in w good credit and no money and leave w a new car. The one pay lease is where you pay for the full 36 mos (or whatever term) up front. So I guess based on what you’ve told me, it just comes down to inflation. My only other concern was tax-related and I’ve since found out that I would have to submit a credit app either way.

That’s mostly what I figured but I was curious to see if there were any variables I had left out of the equation, something I couldn’t think of. The self-proclaimed car expert has a lot more experience selling cars than buying them. Even w/o knowing what standard inflation rates would be, finding out that I’d only save 200-250/yr by doing the one pay dissuaded me from that option. So I took the sign and drive and donated 8/mo to my buddy’s store, in the form of a $2500 wear and tear forgiveness at lease end and a Simonize treatment. Acura gives $750 wear and tear allowance and gap insurance included in almost all leases now, so there wasn’t much need to purchase anything in the back end, other than “tipping” him for getting me in and out and burning gas within 4 hours of arriving at the store. Usually, bc leases require new plates, you have to go in once to test drive/make deal/do paperwork and then come back another day for delivery, while they get your registration, sticker, and plates ready after faxing back and forth the insurance company. Avoiding that 2nd trip was an unexpected pleasant surprise.

Going thru the process again did remind me of one tip I could share (specific to a lease) : no matter how many miles are actually on the car when it’s leased, the manager can always put up to 199 miles on the contract, so that any fewer miles are actually in the car, the more free miles the customer gets access to. So when leasing, it’s a good idea to insist on both the lowest mileage new car and for the contract to list the actual mileage as 199. This one had 6 miles, so i got access to an extra 193 miles.

If you were thinking about buying a new car in the next year or two, is there a best time to buy from a deal perspective? A particular time when the dealership is most willing to give a deal, or is it just month to month based on unknowable factory incentives?

Doug... do you even read? j/k... but this thread has the info. From what I remember...and retained:

Last few days of every month
Last year before a big makeover for the model

As for making the deal: always go in knowing you can walk away from any deal you don't want to make. You are in the driver's seat so to speak.