4 limpers, I'm on the button with T7 and I limp along, SB completes, BB checks.

I have a very narrow limpalong range on the button - I raise 66+, 87s+, Axs, K8s+, KJo+ along with all the preemies after 3 or more limpers, especially when I believe the blinds will call along with most of their range. That may be too tight, I need to rethink it and come back to this. I think this hand is just a shade too weak to try to limp along on the button hoping to "flop something" and I will probably fold this in the future.

As played:

7 players, 7 sb, flop T73r.

Checks around to the CO who bets, I raise, SB coldcalls, everyone else folds.

SB is a player I've never played with before who sat down with $300 and has literally played every single hand. He's called down to the river with some holdings that surprised even me. CO is Mr.-Check-In-The-Dark who plays too many hands and has a couple postflop leaks but isn't completely horrible. I've SEEN him bet into 5 other players with less than top pair but it doesn't happen very often.

3 players, 6bb (adjusting for rake), turn J putting out a twoflush.

Checks around to me. I have to be aware of the possibility of 98 being out there but it's a very small part of the range that BOTH of these players would take the lines they've taken with. If either of them pulled ahead of me there's a very strong chance they'd have let me know it, so a bet is basically a no-brainer. I bet, they both call. Now I'm about 99% sure I have the best hand.

3 players, 9bb, river is an A that doesn't complete a flush.

SB bets, CO raises.

Uggh. I'm getting 6 to 1 with the possibility of seeing it get reraised or even capped. CO very rarely bets the flop without at least a pair. I know nothing about SB but calling stations rarely donk into a player who's shown aggression without two pair or better. That's arguably the worst river card I could have seen (though any board-pairing card is a thread to a low, raggedy two pair like T7).

This is a horrible spot. I think this is a fold, but it's so hard to fold two pair.

Thoughts?

Yeah it’s a fold.

Sucks, but I think you're in 3rd place here. Had a hand similar to this yesterday where the river A crushed my flopped 2P, it was HU and I called as the pot was decent size after telling V' You win."

Your hand is most likely no good. Unless the CO is making a move folding is the best option.

You're raising too many hands when multiple people have limped. Especially K8s is barely worth a limp. Some of the hands you raise are more valuable with fewer people in the pot than more. For example, unless the limper is unusually tight, I will raise KJo against one limper, hoping to isolate him. But I would never raise it against multiple limpers as it's a reverse implied odds hand multiway and really only worth a limp hoping to get a very good flop.

[QUOTE=chillrob;58700866]You're raising too many hands when multiple people have limped. Especially K8s is barely worth a limp.

huh???? No he is not? and of course you raise K8s with multiple limpers in front of you...( once again you are bringing 20/40 strat...to a 4/8 game! )


For example, unless the limper is unusually tight, I will raise KJo against one limper, hoping to isolate him.

Yea and now ur heads up....which is EXACTLY!!!! where you DON'T want to be in a 4/8 game. ( now the rake comes into play, and there are just so many better spots to invest your money) Fold or limp along and hope you pickup some more limpers along the way. Playing heads up at a 4/8 table is a quick way to go broke!
Once again you are bringing 20/40 strategy to a 4/8 game.

[QUOTE=SLIM.SHADY;58705134]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

You're raising too many hands when multiple people have limped. Especially K8s is barely worth a limp.

Ok bud, maybe you should try playing the 20/40 game then, since you seem to know how to play it.

I've played plenty of 4/8 and still do sometimes.
These are weak hands in any game.

This is an easy river fold and calling is close to a 2 BB mistake.

I wouldn’t raise weak offsuit broadways or suited kings that can’t also make a straight after 3 limpers preflop. The other non premium hands are fine to raise (though also fine to limp). There’s real value in being able to hit the board in multiple ways, particularly when you are OTB and can take a 4 card flop.

I'm a little surprised by the comments that this is too many hands to be raising on the button after multiple limpers. MOST of these hands have a mathematical equity edge over the ranges these villains will limp with, even WITHOUT the decapitation (AA and KK do NOT always get raised at this table for example). Even for the few that don't, like 87s, A2s et al, the equity deficit is small, and these are hands that OFTEN benefit from getting to see a 4-card flop. If there were aggressive villains at the table who were donking a lot of flops I could see being more careful, but as long as I've been playing in this game the majority of the villains remain passive and predictable - raising the button almost always gets me a 4-card flop when I want one. Another benefit to raising wide on the button is to disguise the strength of your hand, but I don't think that's an advantage in this game - I don't see any evidence anyone is thinking about anything other than their own cards.

It's true that some of these hands put you in tricky spots postflop, especially if you flop an ace with A3s or top pair with K8s with either card. Even with KJo you're vulnerable to domination if you flop a K, and top pair doesn't hold up in multiway pots as often as in shorthanded pots. But still, at these predictable tables, if I do get a 4-card flop and then someone bets the turn, I know they have at LEAST top pair and can proceed accordingly. If there's a bet and a raise before action gets to me and I can usually SAFELY throw my hand away.

It's also true that often at these tables someone will call me down with AQ, KK or AA on a Q-high flop when I have, for example, KQo. But if that happens, I just say "nice hand" and celebrate knowing when *I* have one of those hands I'm going to win a much bigger pot when it holds up.

What am I missing? All of the hands I listed feel like a reasonable raise on the button at a table like the one I describe.

It's not something quickly explained, but there is more to poker than raw equity. Some hands play better with more people in the pot, some with fewer. Some hands play better in a small pot than a big one.

If your opponents really were going to check to you on every flop though, maybe it would be better to raise pretty much every hand you play.
However, I haven't played in any games close to that in many years.
You're going to have to judge how well that applies to your game, because none of us are facing the same opposition.

J4o beats 76s in hot/cold equity, but in multiway pots we're much more interested in playability then who would win if we could see all five cards after putting money in.

I have been educating myself recently on the concept of equity realization. It has been an eye opener.

i think you can get away with raising any playable hand OTB in a 4/8 game. in higher games where people donk more you have to cut down. i think t7s otb is fine as raise or limp in 4/8. in 10/20 and higher just a limp.

[QUOTE=chillrob;58705213] And according to Izmet K2s is worth a raise with multiple limpers already in. So surely K8s is correct to raise here.

[QUOTE=SLIM.SHADY;58709249] You said my recommendations were 20/40 plays.

What/who is Izmet?

Izmet Fekali...old articles from here...had a running discussion with Skalansky about low limit holdem. there were multiple topics...rammin and Jammin preflop, can't remember the others.

Yes I did, are your recommendations things you'd do at a 20/40 table?

[QUOTE=chillrob;58709437] I have the articles if anyone is interested, I tried to post them but I guess that was a no no, lol.

You are not going to limit the field much by raising at several limpers on the button. I would raise premium hands and hands like suited broadway where you will often flop enough to continue. Raising almost everything in 4-8 game will give you some image.

Not sure you should play J7s on the button with limps in front in 10-20 or higher game. I would fold preflop in this situation,

I think the argument being made is that you are raising to give yourself the option of a 4 card flop should you so choose it. Apparently my 4/8 game plays differently from theirs, there is more donk betting the flop in my games than theirs based on the descriptions.

If there are multiple limps in front of you in a midstakes game, I think it is criminal to fold a hand like J7s preflop.

i think you can go as low as J5s here. id have to look at a chart but i seem to recall that being the lowest suited J playable OTB in this spot.

something like 43s, 64s, T6s, J5s, Q4s, Kxs, IIRC

if memory serves in CO you ditch 43s, T6s, J5s/J6s, Q4-Q6s, K2-k4s. keeping the suited kings probably wouldnt be that bad though if button is passive.

As far as suited Qs or worse, even in the best games I would never pay a full bet to play anything that can't make a straight, and I drop some of the wide gappers below T.

I like this hand a lot; the river decision is a good one to reflect on.

My take on it: 1-3% of the time, both players are going to be out of line. One will have AK or AQ and the other will be turning a worse one-pair hand into a bluff. You will make a disciplined fold and spend the rest of the night/week/month kicking yourself.

3-5% of the time, one of them will be out of line, but the other will have Aces up or better. You're in second place. Good fold.

The other 92% of the time or more, you came in third. Facing two bets, this is a mandatory fold. (Facing a bet and just a call, or a check and a bet, I suppose it's a crying call, but I would still expect to lose 80-90% of the time.)

Any two pair is often good. But the relative value of your hand is more important than its absolute value. A Jack-high flush is a very strong hand in absolute terms, but if there are four of your suit on board, and you're facing a bet and a raise, the relative value of your hand just went way down. And you have not the 4th nuts but about the 15th nuts here.

One red flag is what I like to call "new country heard from." The SB has not shown aggression until the river, and he's betting into two players who have both shown aggression post-flop. That's concerning.

Another red flag is the river raise. In my experience at these stakes, when players raise (or, especially, check-raise) the river, they pretty much always have the goods. I try to remind myself of this in my pre-session pep talks, but I often make bad river calls anyway.

Both villains could easily have Aces up. As played, either of them could have a straight as well, with 98 being more likely than KQ. I suppose one of them could have a flopped set or Jacks up, though those hands would probably have check-raised the turn, which makes them less likely in my mind.

In situations like this, I find it helpful to ask myself, If this situation came up 100 times, what is the choice that would make me the most money if I did it all 100 times? The answer is fold—but I'm still going to second-guess my decision the few times when I would've won if only I'd called.

So what was the result?

lol, good preflop slowplay, super tricky./s