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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 06-21-2018, 06:15 AM   #1
Howard Beale
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Who wants to raise the turn?

Typical 8-16 line-up.

UTG and UTG+1 limp and I limp UTG+2 w/ A3 and, as I'd hoped all but one called. I don't remember the cards exactly but I flopped 2's plus a gut-shot. UTG+1 bets and everybody calls:

Turn: I hit the nuts. UTG+1 bets and I have to make a decision: Pot's big. There are many players behind me that I don't want to fold. OTOH, they've all shown interest so far and may call a raise and, better, someone else may have a flush, raise, the I can cap and cackle inside.

We should...................
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Old 06-21-2018, 09:17 AM   #2
Eric
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

My gut says that anyone behind you who can call a raise would have raised on the flop. A cheap card isn't likely to hurt you. OTOH, there is the bettor.

I'm going to come down on the side of the raise. Straightforward play is probably best with that many people in the hand. You may get a caller or two behind you, in addition to the bettor. Many players might call a single bet on the flop light and fold the turn anyway. Most who would call a turn bet will fold on the river. If they call a turn raise, they may also call a river bet.
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:07 PM   #3
AlanBostick
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Raise. You may even get into a raising war with a lower flush.
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:53 PM   #4
OnTheRail15
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Raise for sure. People will call with lots of pair+fd hands as well as 2pr+
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:06 PM   #5
jdr0317
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

I'd raise anyway.

As far as the board goes, making something up is better than nothing IMO. Like did you have a straight draw with 652? A lot different than, say, K42.
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:31 PM   #6
Howard Beale
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Sleep has aided my recollection. The board was Q45. Essentially that if not exact. Turn was some middle card, say the 9.
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Old 06-21-2018, 05:10 PM   #7
jdr0317
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Okay so yeah, we for sure want to raise.

Obviously the concern is "I'm overrepping my hand" (or as much as one can overrep the nuts as possible), but think about it:

Is Qx+ folding? At these stakes prob not
76s? No chance
8d7/8d6? Nope
Kd? Nope.

Really by calling we're just hoping someone overcalls with a weak hand. Might as well charge them.
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Old 06-21-2018, 05:19 PM   #8
dropnloads
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Avoid Fancy Play Syndrome (FPS) usually works best.

Just calling the Turn with the nuts just getting you in trouble.
If I understand the situation correct (All but one call preflop, Turn UTG+1 Bets) Pot is about 80 bucks.

What hands are going to call 8 but not call 16?

I would go ahead and Raise.
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Old 06-21-2018, 05:53 PM   #9
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

I'd raise here...yeah, someone might muck that could call one bet but not two, but that card creates more straight draws, single-card flush draws, and maybe some two pairs. I'd rather charge them than wait until the end and raise which would fold out people with, say JT that missed.

Did you have thoughts about raising the flop? How would you have played 44 / 55 in this situation?
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:11 PM   #10
Howard Beale
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Once upon a time I (we?) used the term 'game speed' or 'in tempo' which sort of doesn't apply these days, tyvm NLHE and TV poker but I still like to act that way. It took an entire second to figure 'What the heck, they all called the flop, I want a big pot and raising is the way to get it' so I raised and only one person folded. TBH, I posted the hand bec I said that I was going to try to find something to post. This hand was the second one I'd played and I was up nearly a rack by the time the chip runner brought my BI.

BTW, UTG+1 3-bet so I could cap. These silly people..........

----------------

I don't think raising the flop w/ my hand is the right thing to do since I want everyone in. If I'd hit a set I would do the usual: Raise and curse my luck bec I am the King of getting it in good and losing.
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Old 06-22-2018, 12:25 AM   #11
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dropnloads View Post
Avoid Fancy Play Syndrome (FPS) usually works best.

Just calling the Turn with the nuts just getting you in trouble.
If I understand the situation correct (All but one call preflop, Turn UTG+1 Bets) Pot is about 80 bucks.

What hands are going to call 8 but not call 16?

I would go ahead and Raise.
To be fair a lot of people will peel the turn here with weak pairs and draws but fold for 2 cold.

This being said, I do agree that the risk of not raising way outweighs the reward. Plus someone could have a K or J high flush and reraise!
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Old 06-22-2018, 12:44 AM   #12
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Smile Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
Sleep has aided my recollection. The board was Q45. Essentially that if not exact. Turn was some middle card, say the 9.
Too drunk.

I'd raise flop close to 100% mutiway with nut FD and gut shut straight on flop.
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Old 06-22-2018, 10:42 AM   #13
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

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Originally Posted by maka2184 View Post
I'd raise flop close to 100% mutiway with nut FD and gut shut straight on flop.
A raise on the flop would make the crowd face two bets rather than one. Some of the peanut gallery might fold.

Remember, in a massively multiway pot, the mistakes made by the herd of callers accrue to the best draw, not the current best hand. We want to harvest those mistakes.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:43 AM   #14
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Plus sometimes we get to LRR and turn our hand face up, but that's okay because it's FL and people just call when they have good hands in huge pots even when they're almost always beat.
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Old 07-07-2018, 04:13 AM   #15
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Please, please, please raise the turn with the nuts. If you never ever slowplay the nuts in a multiway pot, you’ll be doing very well in the long run. Omg! Raise!
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:39 PM   #16
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Any reason we aren't raising the flop? I know we face people with 2 bets but we have 8-9 players on the flop and we have more than just the flush draw. What kind of hands fold for 2 bets that don't fold for 1 when the pot is this big already.
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Old 07-18-2018, 12:11 AM   #17
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
A raise on the flop would make the crowd face two bets rather than one. .
LOL Is this a level?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
Some of the peanut gallery might fold. Remember, in a massively multiway pot, the mistakes made by the herd of callers accrue to the best draw, not the current best hand. We want to harvest those mistakes.
You're saying you dont want to fold the peanut gallery because you want them around to call your raise when you do hit?

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Old 07-18-2018, 12:42 AM   #18
AlanBostick
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

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Originally Posted by Captain Underpairs View Post
LOL Is this a level?

You're saying you dont want to fold the peanut gallery because you want them around to call your raise when you do hit?
No, I am saying that I don't want to fold out the peanut gallery because every dollar that goes into the pot now, on the flop, contributes to my equity, and I want those dollars to go into the pot.

See "Morton's Theorem."
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:51 AM   #19
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Raise flop. Raise turn.
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:18 AM   #20
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
No, I am saying that I don't want to fold out the peanut gallery because every dollar that goes into the pot now, on the flop, contributes to my equity, and I want those dollars to go into the pot.

See "Morton's Theorem."

howard, obviously raise the turn

the flop i think is close-ish but i'd lean toward raising. certainly if we were otb after a bet and a zillion calls then it's an easy raise.

peanut gallery can't call 2 bets in massively multiway pots unless you raise and give them the chance to

i hear morton's theorem mentioned once every few years but i've never been convinced of its relevance. things like equity and EV are much more useful imo
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:38 AM   #21
Howard Beale
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

If I thought they'd all call 2 on the flop Id've raised but wanted as many to be in as possible. Close as you say. Button w/ all having called is an easy raise, agreed.
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:20 PM   #22
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Re: Who wants to raise the turn?

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Originally Posted by BigBadBabar View Post
howard, obviously raise the turn

the flop i think is close-ish but i'd lean toward raising. certainly if we were otb after a bet and a zillion calls then it's an easy raise.

peanut gallery can't call 2 bets in massively multiway pots unless you raise and give them the chance to

i hear morton's theorem mentioned once every few years but i've never been convinced of its relevance. things like equity and EV are much more useful imo
I think reads on opponents are actually pretty important here. You definitely don't want to get ace high heads up against a range where your ace high is never good, flush draw or no flush draw. So if you have reads that the opponents will fold most of their range (such as pairs) to 2 bets, you don't want to raise the flop. On the other hand, in typical 8-16 games, you can generally get them to call 2 bets, and as long as at least one of them does the raise is a good play.
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