Let's look at this hand from perspective of the villain.

utg limps

I raise 8d7d in CO

Blinds and villain call

2h Qd 8c

Checked to me, I bet, SB raises, field folds, I call.

Considering dryness of board, I weight his range heavily toward a Q.

(2h Qd 8c) Kd

He checks, which is exactly what a scared Q does and he isn't folding so I check behind.

(2h Qd 8c Kd) 2d

Yay I haz a flush. He bet's out and calls my raise.

Against an opponent who isn't playing spaz random, is villain ever ahead after this river raise?

Which is another way of asking, if we were villain, should we fold? (Of course, we'd bet turn, but maybe if turn was an A, with more players, we'd check).

what is the point of this thread?

That OP never bluffraises a river?

nh

Final answer.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Charmed_Life

There likely isn't much to any bluff river raising at a lower level, so he shouldn't be paying off in this scenario very often.

This villain is going to call because he's making mistakes. If he's going to make the mistake of checking the turn, he'll make the mistake of paying off the river.

I think the Jeights level is higher than that. and what you eluding to above is a really evil circle

J9d -

It's a challenge, given that we know your hand and don't know villain's.
But yeah, I can see how villain talks himself into calling with a Q.

You don't have a King, you don't have a (good) Q, you probably don't have a deuce, and his hand looks weak so this would be a good spot to bluff raise.

Whether all that fits hero's profile/thought process is something we don't know without observing play, but can only deduce from the tone of your post.

bluff raising this river would be stupid.

This leads me to conclude....

The opposite of this

list ranges for both hands and clarify your reasoning.

Bill, this hand is hard for me to get in the head of the villain. I know your cards and your read of him, rather than his cards and his read of you. Next time even if you don't know his cards, make some up. Like the concept of reversed hands, but the post makes it hard to go with.

On the debate on bluffing, I see it two ways. One, we never have worse than X means the villain safely folds everything worse and enjoys shrimp cocktail. Against some people who post here, I'd agree with JL and say that the scare card plus the villain's hand reading plus ability to fold make larceny attractive. However, if we assume that you're playing vs a PoW, he's going to say "I know you have it" and put in the calling chips. Even though we correctly represent a hand he can't beat, fur coat is still his. Whether he can parlay that into being sore later is still a question. Basically, the assumptions make the decision. You can't thin value bet a guy who needs to be bluffed a lot and pay off wizard can't be moved.

Is j9 diamonds your name or is that the other hand? lol.

The line of reasoning stems from where this hand is posted and since it's without a "steaks" i'm left to assume lower limit where people aren't thinking things through. I don't know the OP, so forgive me if my assumption is insulting, or incorrect.

I can think of about 2 people in the hundreds I play with that would c/r then check this turn, let alone any turn. So..i'm left to believe the player in the hand(who c/r'ed) is making mistakes, isn't going to be looking for places to fold or fancy play call downs. They are looking to turn hands over and see who wins.

In a bigger/thinking game, I don't see how anyone can check the turn thus the rest of the hand is messed up as well. But if they did they shouldn't be looking to fold the river here, even if it looks like a trips, or a someone who flopped a gutter backdoor diamonds most of the time.

Opponent rnage is mostly Qx and 8x with some
Missed gutters. Our rane is irrelevant here, all that matters is villian perceives that his range can never be good when we raise this river., and we have an enormously profitable bluff raise in a spot that you think is stupidz


Obviously there are lots of players against while bluff raising would be terrible. But recognizing which players to fold against and which players will moan and say I'm never good here, flip ober their Queen and fold is going to be the difference between barely beating these games and murdering these games.

if you think villian might have missed gutters you must be forgetting this is a small stakes forum.

hero's line also doesnt make much sense. what is he repping besides backdoored diamonds?

i dunno i murdered these games for years and i never took a river bluffraise line inconsistent with my previous action.

Hero should have barreled turn, or are you missing that flush got there?

I disagree with a barrel because a Q is so likely.

People don't come to the casino to play poker to fold on the river for one more bet. Even if they think they are beat, they put in the call. Isn't that the reason we love them? And, the bluffing frequency is so low at these stakes, it amazes me that people constantly pay off, but they do.