Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-17-2013, 03:57 PM   #1
DalTXColtsFan
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: contributing to the poker economy
Posts: 3,310
SSHE (the book) theory discussion

We can use this thread for discussing the advice given in the book - do you agree with it/disagree with it, have you tried it with/without success, under what circumstances is it good advice etc.
DalTXColtsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 04:11 PM   #2
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,603
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Maybe you could give specific examples?
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 04:18 PM   #3
DalTXColtsFan
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: contributing to the poker economy
Posts: 3,310
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

I'll start:

I'd like to discuss how they recommend playing medium and small pocket pairs.

I can understand limping either of the two in early position at a GENERALLY PASSIVE PREFLOP table where you're likely to get 5+ callers, and where even if you do get ONE raise, 5+ villains are likely to play along anyways, with your early position giving you the advantage that you should be able to checkraise to build a pot if you flop a set or c/f if you don't. I'd be okay playing a 5+way pot for 2 bets with either a mid OR low pocket pair. At this kind of a table I'd rather not open raise a PP so early because I'm more likely to only get called by strong hands. Thoughts?

If you're at one of the rare low-stakes LHE tables where it's likely to be 3+ bets preflop, the book seems to say, fold the low pocket pairs in EP but it doesn't say to fold the mid-pocket pairs in EP. Are they assuming that if pots are frequently being 3-bet pre that these 3-bets are frequently representing non-pairs and frequently result in short-handed pots? I wouldn't mind going against a LOOSE 3-better with 99 (the pot would likely be heads-up or 3-way and 99 would be strong against their loose range), but I wouldn't want to go against that kind of flop action with 44. Is that kind of where they were going?

In middle or late position, the main thing I didn't understand is why they recommend throwing away small pocket pairs when the pot is unopened. If the BB is so loose he'll call anything why *not* raise him with 22 from, for example, the HJ? He's only going to make a pair about half the time, so why not put some pressure on him?
DalTXColtsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 05:53 PM   #4
Jon_locke
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,180
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Because there's 4-5 people left to act and you have 22. And most live players do open 22/33 in mp. I'm
Not saying its right, just that lots of people do it.
Jon_locke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 06:18 PM   #5
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Bob148's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: takin it to the streets
Posts: 10,368
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
I'll start:

If the BB is so loose he'll call anything why *not* raise him with 22 from, for example, the HJ? He's only going to make a pair about half the time, so why not put some pressure on him?
Because the book assumes you're a beginner who should not be raising 22 from the HJ. I'd tell a beginner to raise 55 or 66+, depending on how good I thought they were postflop.

99 is a raise from utg at a ten handed table under any circumstances. Is a four way pot against three coldcallers the worst result? Probably, but that's just one outcome, which I think is still profitable for all but the worst players, out of the many different outcomes.

re: three betting the flop with an ace high wheel draw:

I've used this play and it worked. I think it should not be a standard play though. First, the bettor must have a lot of hands that we're behind which would fold for two bets, but call for one. Second, the raiser must not be weighted to two pair+, which would render our Ace outs very dirty. Third, we must not have a spewy image to begin with, because we'll be called down too often.

I've passed on this play, under what I would consider close circumstances, because I didn't have a good read on the flop raiser. Hindsight showed that in that specific case, I should've 3 bet. I've also passed on this play many other times when I felt that it wasn't warranted. Lol sample, but the times that I saved money from passing on this play far outweigh the times that it would've worked almost assuredly.

re: limping the baby pairs

Do it enough, and you'll find yourself isolated heads up out of position before too long. This is the worst possible result imo. Would you open limp J8s utg if you felt there was a >5% chance of a raise behind? Is J8s better or worse than 22 when it's four ways or less for one bet? Two bets? I'll take J8s in both spots, yet would fold both if I thought there was a >5% chance of a raise behind me.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 08:54 PM   #6
BigBadBabar
California Elephant
 
BigBadBabar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: I finished my website!
Posts: 21,420
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

it's important to remember that this book was written a while ago when the games were softer and lhe theory wasn't very developed. it's still useful for basics, and applies to low stakes no-foldem games, but those are much less common than they used to be. maybe that threshold is 4/8 live and below, these days, whereas it used to be 20/40 or higher.
BigBadBabar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 05:40 PM   #7
DalTXColtsFan
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: contributing to the poker economy
Posts: 3,310
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Don't know if this is relevant to the discussion or if I'm just overcomplicating things, but I did a search of the FR LHE games I played on Carbon (they stopped spreading FR LHE games a few months ago so these are all old hands).

45 times I openlimped 22-66 from at least 3 seats off the button.

Only 12 of those 45 times did at least 5 players see the flop (including me).

I flopped a set 2 of those 12 times. One of the two times I won a 7BB pot (three of the four villains who saw the flop folded it), the other of the 2 times I lost to a flush.

Of the other 10 times, I only made it to showdown 3 times - twice losing to a higher pair after passive betting, and once rivering a boat to win about a 6BB pot.

Of the 33 times where I didn't get at least 4 other villains to come along with me I only made it to showdown 4 times (only 6 of the 33 were heads up on the flop).


75 times I had 77-TT at least 3 seats off the button and at least 2/3 of the time I raised it, and to make a long story short they were much more profitable. It wasn't even close.


First of all I'll say I sure hope the live games are looser than the online games!

Second, it seems like this really illustrates just how optomistic the conditions have to be for limping a baby PP in EP to be profitable - you basically have to be guaranteed 5+ to the flop for no more than 2 small bets, 2+ to the turn and river ON THE HANDS WHERE YOU HAPPEN TO FLOP A SET and hope you don't get sucked out on more than your fair share. And even THEN you're only marginally making more when your set holds up or boats up than when you don't flop a set and have to bail.

Hope this made any sense at all. Critique and feedback welcome.
DalTXColtsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 05:52 PM   #8
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,603
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

You haven't adjusted to the tight conditions online. The games are much more TAG than would allow you to play small PP this way. It hasn't worked, it is what we'd expect, and you should stop. Limping to set mine doesn't work in online.

What does SSHE say about super-tight games and adjustments?
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 05:54 PM   #9
DalTXColtsFan
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: contributing to the poker economy
Posts: 3,310
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

I filtered my entire database (6-max and FR) down to where I raised 22-66 first in from the CO or BTN.

There were 66 such hands. 22 went to showdown and I won 12 of those. I won 20 of the other 44 without a showdown.

Overall I won 6.04BB those 66 hands.

So it would seem clear openraising these baby pairs from LATE position is more profitable (or at least significantly less unprofitable) than openlimping them early, but how to play them (likely) heads-up postflop is probably a totally different question (and outside the scope of this particular thread).

Sorry if that made no sense I'm just trying to reconcile the advice in the book to experience.

EDIT: On p.90 he recommends folding hands like 22 from middle position that prefer multiway pots. Maybe I'm confusing myself - openraising those from MP is not the same as openraising them from the CO or BTN.

Last edited by DalTXColtsFan; 12-18-2013 at 05:59 PM.
DalTXColtsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 05:57 PM   #10
DalTXColtsFan
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: contributing to the poker economy
Posts: 3,310
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
You haven't adjusted to the tight conditions online. The games are much more TAG than would allow you to play small PP this way. It hasn't worked, it is what we'd expect, and you should stop. Limping to set mine doesn't work in online.

What does SSHE say about super-tight games and adjustments?
A good question. On p.91 he clearly says, "In tight, aggressive games you must play very few hands in early position because someone on your left could raise, which will often limit the flop to 3 or 4 players" (shoot, online you're LUCKY to get 3 when someone raises).

EDIT: I muddled around a lot of facts, but I think the point I was trying to make in post #7 was that it seems like you need very, very optomistic conditions for limping a PP in EP to be profitable (and these conditions are clearly spelled out in the book - consistently passive preflop aggressive postflop), and one should look realistically at a table to see if those conditions are indeed present.
DalTXColtsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 06:13 PM   #11
BigBadBabar
California Elephant
 
BigBadBabar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: I finished my website!
Posts: 21,420
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

SSHE doesn't apply to today's online games, or even most of today's live games.
BigBadBabar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2013, 02:23 PM   #12
douloureux
journeyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: your head
Posts: 387
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadBabar View Post
it's important to remember that this book was written a while ago when the games were softer and lhe theory wasn't very developed. it's still useful for basics, and applies to low stakes no-foldem games, but those are much less common than they used to be. maybe that threshold is 4/8 live and below, these days, whereas it used to be 20/40 or higher.
DING DING DING !!^^^^

Id say the theory is undoubtedly sound although the opinion on execution is dated. ( hardly any tables play that terribly anymore) also you can really examine the way the examples are so careful couched
douloureux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2013, 06:31 PM   #13
Amber
old hand
 
Amber's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,423
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Is there a different book that is more current? I just started reading SSHE but wouldn't mind reading another if it has more relevant information.
Amber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2013, 06:48 PM   #14
Munga30
veteran
 
Munga30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sacking up and saying thank you.
Posts: 2,312
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

if you're only just reading it now, you should read it several times and master it for what comes next. its still worth your time.
Munga30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2013, 08:14 PM   #15
DalTXColtsFan
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: contributing to the poker economy
Posts: 3,310
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber View Post
Is there a different book that is more current? I just started reading SSHE but wouldn't mind reading another if it has more relevant information.
If you ever go to a casino and stumble onto one of the rare tables where

- there are 5+ players who enter every hand
- almost every hand goes to the river if not showdown, usually with 3 villains still in the hand,
- most of the players at the table will call with just about anything but will only raise with something that can beat TPTK

you will thank yourself profusely for taking the time to master the material in SSHE. Those types of tables *do* still exist. They're not as common as they were as recently as 3 years ago but they definitely still exist. And there's no more profitable a real-money LHE table.

I would challenge you to, as you're reading through SSHE, start thinking to yourself, "Would this advice work at a table where people are only playing profitable starting hands, only cold-calling raises when they should be (resulting in mostly heads-up or 3-way pots), mixing up their play on the flop and turn etc.? Why or why not?"
DalTXColtsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2013, 08:26 PM   #16
Leader
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Math is the answer
Posts: 11,677
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber View Post
Is there a different book that is more current? I just started reading SSHE but wouldn't mind reading another if it has more relevant information.
Winning in Tough Hold'em Games is more current, but is still significantly behind the online game.
Leader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2013, 11:17 PM   #17
DalTXColtsFan
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: contributing to the poker economy
Posts: 3,310
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leader View Post
Winning in Tough Hold'em Games is more current, but is still significantly behind the online game.
But even in the cases of WITHG or HEPFAP, you can read the advice and figure out against what types of players it works and why, and look for those patterns in your games. Not trying to be a broken record just trying to drive home the point that that type of analysis is a useful skill in and of itself.
DalTXColtsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2013, 11:51 PM   #18
douloureux
journeyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: your head
Posts: 387
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

IT is my feeling that WITHG is less applicable to todays LLHE games (live) than HEPFAP or SSHE. on other words I would suggest that neophytes consume both HEPFAP and SSHE before WITHG.

you really don't want someone to give you a fish you want a community of experienced players with a proven true edge to teach you how to fish.

with that being said " if a player critically studied and methodically applied the material included in some of the most recent publications on the subject then with experience that person would be well on his or her way to getting way the best of it in today's limit poker games. Beyond this most other critical skills revolve around money and life management.
douloureux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2013, 01:14 AM   #19
Man of Means
Pooh-Bah
 
Man of Means's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: poker desert
Posts: 4,577
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

No other book gets a beginner up to speed as quickly. One place I'll say SSHE is outdated is the EP limping range. Most games just aren't loose passive enough to make limping hands like K9s, A3s, and 22 profitable. In fact, limping in EP rarely, if ever, seems like a good idea.
Man of Means is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2013, 07:16 AM   #20
Amber
old hand
 
Amber's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,423
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Thanks for the replies. I will read SSHE first a few times then get the other book. I would really enjoy a thread about the differences in theories between both once I read them. I don't play online at all (anymore) but do play 4/8 live.

One more quick question - I do have Lee Jones book (2nd edition I believe). Is this still relevant? I also got the book by King Yao but it is way over my head.
Amber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2013, 03:07 PM   #21
callipygian
slowrolled by tpiranha!
 
callipygian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: but I don't know which
Posts: 19,889
SSHE (tight game opening chart) is still pretty relevant to live games below 15/30-20/40. You should still bet/fold a ton and generally respect raises, you should still push big draws hard and assume multiway pots to the turn.

WITHG is not super appropriate in that villains are assumed to be aggressive. Lines it advocates assume you're heads up to the flop and villains are showdown bound.
callipygian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2013, 07:17 PM   #22
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,603
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

I loved Lee's book back in the day. He wrote a great book for beginners, including some "what to expect in the casino" stuff, iirc.I'm guessing that beginner's advice that old is going to be really loose/passive in modern games. Even back then, his goal was just to help a novice break even -- this wasn't how to crush 101. YMMV, but i'd guess the time has passed for this classic. Maybe Lee would do a modern edition? Lee Jones vanity search one time?

Last edited by DougL; 12-23-2013 at 07:41 PM. Reason: silly tablet
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2013, 07:33 PM   #23
rodeo
veteran
 
rodeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: i'll tell you when i get there
Posts: 3,248
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
Lee Jones
fyp, just in case Lee Jones decides to google himself. do you think Lee Jones would do that? i'm not sure as i don't know Lee Jones personally. i did hear a story that Lee Jones played really tight back in the day, and when Lee Jones 3bet another good players CO open, that good player folded when it came back to him for 1 bet. i wonder what Lee Jones would think about that play?
rodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2013, 09:45 PM   #24
Leader
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Math is the answer
Posts: 11,677
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
But even in the cases of WITHG or HEPFAP, you can read the advice and figure out against what types of players it works and why, and look for those patterns in your games. Not trying to be a broken record just trying to drive home the point that that type of analysis is a useful skill in and of itself.
In my view, even that is generous. WITHG is a reasonable start on a base strategy that one could take to the micros and have it work out ok. HPFAP or SSH are steps in the wrong direction for beginning online players imo (that's not to say that they are of no value at all ever). In the end, beating any reasonable stacks online requires a player to be very good to great. Getting that done usually requires a lot of watching videos as well as independent hand and data analysis.
Leader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 03:30 AM   #25
Captain Ron
adept
 
Captain Ron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: time goes by, so slowly
Posts: 942
Re: SSHE (the book) theory discussion

Online 6-max, read WITHG.

Live full-ring small-stakes, read SSHE.

They are two very different books, geared towards totally different games. Reading one book and then jumping into a game of the other type will lead to disaster.
Captain Ron is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online