Context: I live in Boston so I finally have a casino near me. (Encore)

Has anyone on this forum tried to implement what the Small Stakes book by Ed Miller recommends at a live 3-6 game, kept records, and been able to win?

People on other forums continue to argue that 3-6 is not beatable because of rake. I want to know if I should invest the time in reading the book in detail again and stick with 3-6, or focus on learning 1-3 No Limit until I'm brave enough to try that.

Please only respond if you have _personal experience_ in trying to win at a 3-6 game, and tracked results accordingly. I want real world answers, not theoretical ones.

Thanks!
Chris

What is the rake? The absolute best players will be close to break even when the rake approaches one big bet.

Also $1-$3 no limit will play a lot bigger than $3-$6 limit and you will need a larger bankroll.

The rake is 5% up to $5 plus $1 for the bad beat jackpots. Are you stating what the best players will earn based on anything other than "common knowledge"? Do you have any data or math to back that up?

I know 1-3 NL is a lot larger bankroll. That's why I'm not ready to jump into it yet. I have a full time job as a teacher which gives me a lot of hours vacation so I can take poker as a very serious hobby.

at 3/6, if you're really good at poker you'll win $1-2 an hour while experiencing constant swings of $100-200 bucks and occasional downswings of $1000 or more. probably not a good use of time.

What makes you say/think that?

Do you have anything you are basing that opinion on?

do a search on winrates in this forum, this is a pretty common question.

I don't know about the Encore, but the nice thing about 1/3NL is that most casinos let you buy into it for $100, so you can play the shortstack strategy - shortstacking is a reasonable way to "build up" the courage to play NL. There are two caveats - 1, you must have the boredom tolerance of a Vulcan. 2, you must have the discipline to watch the table while you're waiting for premium hands - who are the nits, the stations, the maniacs, who is capable of double- or triple-barreling etc:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/3...05/?highlight=

That's funny - I literally JUST came across that short-stack post right before refreshing this thread to see if anyone had commented.

I am a VERY patient person, so maybe that would be good for me to try for something like 50 hours to test the waters.

Thanks!

It really depends on how you define “winning.”

I play a lot of 3-6; technically I am a winning player, as I have made a small profit every except for two when I had small losses since I started keeping records in 2006. So 11 winning years and 2 losing years. And I do base my play to a large degree on the ideas in SSHE.

But my win rate over time is somewhere around $2 an hour, so not quite half a big bet. It’s no way to build a bankroll!

I play for fun as a hobby; if I didn’t I’d probably be dropping thousands on something like model trains, so $2 an hour beats a lot of other alternatives for entertainment!

As far as swings in limit, I’ve always just used 30 big bets as the rule of thumb; so at 3-6 I’ll bring $240 with me, and I’ll lose it all if I’m having a particularly bad night. It hasn’t happened often, but it has happened! On a few lovely occasions I’ve won more than that on an especially juicy table, but wins and losses are mostly 2 figures.

If you just want to have fun playing poker, small stakes limit can be a lot of fun, but if stupid play getting lucky stresses you out, be aware you’ll see a LOT of stupid play at most 3-6 tables!

It makes sense to read the book and play 3/6 though it is almost impossible to beat the rake. I you are only marginally losing after 1000hrs and have an idea how much you pay in rake you would evolve into a small winner.

It is okay to start as a loser. The book means you will lose less, so its positive.

If you want evidence look at winrates people have gotten in the micros. 2.5 BB/100 hands is absolutely crushing, very very few people could do that ever probably.25/.50 you might see similar to 3/6 live skill level. Online micro is probably more aggressive so winrate could be even better.

Someone did rake math in a post at some point search for it in the forum, micros rake is horrendous but still not up to live 3/6 I think... Let's say it's even for arguments' sake so a crusher can do 2.5 BB/100.

At a small stakes live table with lots of hands going to the river multiway you're lucky to do 30 hands per hour. But let's say 33 is what you get even though average is likely less.

2.5 BB per 100 is .8ish per 33. At 3/6 that's less than $5/hr. $5/hr for an absolute crushing expert when game is moving faster than it likely is and rake is lower than it likely is

Now think about how good you likely are. Now think about how high the variance of winrate is. Just do something else with your time or play for fun not money.

I have experience beating $3/$6 (full-kill) limit hold'em and 1/2 NL... In the past and here recently... The rake being a max of $5 for both games. Win/rates don't really matter in of themselves; until you get good enough to beat them, get better and move up.

Best books to read are Lee Millers Small Stakes Limit Holdem, and Dan Harrington's NL cash game series.

Here are my winrates from last year.

2018:
$3-$6 Limit Holdem Full-Kill: Game Profit:$1,259.00; Hours:329.25; Hourly $3.82; Bonus Money:$3,990.00 Total Amount: (Rate and Bonus Money) $5,249.00; Total Hourly: $15.94

$1-$2 No-Limit Holdem:Game Profit: $2,522.00;Total Hours:114.75; Hourly: $21.98 Bonus Money:$660.00 Total Amount:$3,182.00;Total Hourly (Rate and Bonus Money):$27.73

I wouldn't play $3-$6 unless there was bonus money involved and really it depends on the bonus as to how many hours I'll put in... The difference in my case was just under $4 an hour (without bonus money); to over $15 an hour.

GL

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I feel this is a good time/place to share. Thanks for the opportunity.

I just got back into the live game after an 8 year hiatus, and also picked up the SSHE book recently. To date, I've only read one other poker book in my life, WITHG, first probably 10+ years ago. I re-read it in the past several weeks, and now my live game is really a mosaic of WITHG and SSHE. I plan to re-read both several times as I continue to play. Currently I strictly play LHE, even though I started with NL, I simply don't have any confidence in that space.

I also have a full time job but as a spreadsheet monkey. I live 12 miles from my local card room so its easy for me to go after work on weekdays and weekends. My true goal in poker is to supplement income. Fun, yeah, but there are other things that are fun that don't torment your soul.

I began my newly founded "poker hobby" in March 2019, and started at 4/8 to ease myself back into the game/give myself cheap lessons. I thought it'd be like riding a bike. 2/4 and 3/6 are around but rarely spread, and I have an objective, so even at 2BB/hr, those stakes still wouldn't be worth it.

I never truly tracked poker until now, and I assumed I was a "winning" player based on my single deposit from the online days and making withdrawals (multi-tabling $0.50/1, $1/$2, and $2/4 occasional $5/10), as well as taking shots on various LV trips (games ranging from 4/8 at venetian, 9/18 at aria, and 20/40, 30/60 at bellagio) and walking out alive. I played a wsop limit event when I was 21 and bubbled.

Now this is no serious sample size, but after 100 hours of table time, I was down just under 100 BB, with violent swings all the way. Obviously when I started, I was winning, otherwise I wouldn't have kept playing, but as I added volume and continued to lose, I began to think how delusional I was at being a "winning" player. I talked to 2 friends who know my story and experience: one currently a cash game pro 12-years and running (he mostly plays NL and but now dabbles in LHE), another the very friend that introduced me to the game 15-16 years ago and lived with said 12-year pro throughout college. They both said I'm leveling myself. I decided I'm not good, but I'm not bad, and I should continue my quest.


The pro warned me before I started that 4/8 is unbeatable. Rake is $7+$1 per hand, and after what I went through, I'm confirming it's unbeatable. I'd still have to win at 2BB+/hr just to make minimum wage. Not only is that win rate unattainable, it's unsustainable given my objective. I can find more quarters in vending machines faster. I think I can safely assume anything lower than 4/8 is also unbeatable. You can memorize SSHE and execute perfectly, but it won't help.

I moved on to 8/16 immediately after that 100th hour, a planned milestone. I'm not quite at 100 hours yet at 8/16, nor will 100 hours at 8/16 be a good indicator of anything going forward, but so far I've been more profitable, and experienced less variance. I will never step below these stakes again.

If I'm allowed to give advice, it's save time/money and sack up to play a beatable stake. If you're going to "invest" it should be in your bankroll, so your time can be spent wisely. You can read the book instead of watching tv. I think I'm going to start posting hand histories, I need to move up to 20/40.

Nice jack pot heater

Theoretically, $3/$6 LHE is very hard to beat, so any real-world player with a modicum of poker experience and skill would opt to play something else, like maybe $6/$12 LHE.

But one person's results at $3/$6 or $6/$12 (or any specific game and limit, for that matter) against a different player pool in a different city will have no bearing on your results. Even if you've both read Ed Miller's book, you may interpret it and apply it differently; and you may have vastly different approaches to money management, time management, game selection, and emotional control, all of which will affect your win rate at least as much as, if not more than, your betting strategies.

And why take up LHE in 2019 unless you live in an area where there are lots of limit games with good action at a variety of stakes, so you can move up as you improve and build your bankroll? NLHE is the most popular variant of poker nationwide; is it the most popular variant in the place where you play? If so, that's the game I would focus on if I were in your shoes.

Good luck.

At Boston Harbor Encore.on average 2 tables of 3/6 seem to run daily.
Sometimes 3 to 4 tables on the weekend.
The 8/16, for whatever reason, hardly ever runs.
The next lowest game running is one table of the 20/40.

So unless you're rolled for the 20/40, and I imagine the skill level at that table is pretty high, your only option if you want to play limit , is the 3/6.

I've only played one session myself so far. I agree, the game is unbeatable because of the rake .I didn't have a good session. Was card dead the whole time But, the players are pretty bad. Example, mostly limping. People calling all the way down to the river with bottom pair. Just have to make some hands to take advantage.
I still look forward to playing many more sessions for three reasons that op maybe can agree with.
1) I'm not rolled at the moment for 1/3 nl
2) I want to use it to better my overall poker game
3) let's face it, limit is a lot friendlier and thus more enjoyable than nl.

Fwiw op, I got small stakes poker from Ed Miller / Sklanskey recently through a recommendation from here. I should have bought it years ago. I was hesitant because I thought it must be outdated, but it seems small stakes limit really hasn't changed that much.
Glad I got it and you'll soon realize that there's a lot you still have to learn.
Gl, maybe we'll get to know each other.

I had a pretty accurate ledger since like 2005 though I stopped playing about 3 years ago due to having a kid. My money won / lost was pretty accurate but its sometimes difficult to get an extremely accurate measure of time each session. I had about 2000 hours at 3/6 and won just shy of about $4 per hour. I also got $1 / hour in comps. Rake is %10 up to $5 + $1 BBJ drop. Pretty much all of my play was on weekends so the games are obviously juicier then.

So in real-world money its not a lot of earn, but as for a hobby I really enjoy its great. Never moved up as the next biggest game is 20/40 with a 1/2 kill.

No real Jackpot hands... The games I play run High Hand promos; but yeah an extra $100 or $200 here or there certainly adds up. Honestly, it makes the games somewhat worth it.

Thanks for the information and feedback everyone!

I decided to be brave and played 1-3 NL for 5 hours today. Was down nearly $200 at one point but rallied to -$90. Felt like an acceptable way for a first session to go. Have a lot of notes from the session to go over and think about!

Chris

Chris,

The Cash Strategy forum under the Live Venues heading (on the left sidebar) has some very good advice on beating live NL at those stakes. Read up over there and post some hands that give you problems. In particular, read everything by jdr0317, Garick, amanaplan, Minatorr, johnnyBuz, SABR42, XtraScratch8. These are the really good posters I could think of off the top of my head. There are several more. Good luck!

munga (also an Encore player)

That should be "Live Poker" on the sidebar.