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Old 08-01-2019, 08:32 AM   #26
Nepeeme2008
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1 View Post
hes a typical bad player. puts in nothing preflop with a monster and then calls with nothing the rest of way.
Thanks for your thoughts. I was thinking after review,why did I post that hand?
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Old 08-01-2019, 09:25 AM   #27
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Of op is still here, I think he has to start recording and posting some hand histories of he expects more concrete help.
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:06 AM   #28
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

I approve of nittyoldman's message.

Nepeene, you should check out the book winning in tough hold'em games to learn about 3-betting lightly.

Also I bet you are cold calling way too often. NL players cold call because the open raise was big enough for big blind to fold most of the time and a 3-bet is rising way more money, like putting in 2x+ more. In limit a 3-bet is risking one more bet, so only one third more, and big blind will fold very often. When you cold call big blind is getting 5 to 1 which is good odds for a lot of hands!

Then once you have 3-bet in position you have more control over the hand and can take 4 card flop is you need it.

If you aren't comfortable 3-betting then just fold, don't cold call in limit. It's coming in on your heels and inviting the big blind to take equity from the pot on the cheep.
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:08 AM   #29
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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1. I'm open raising about 80%. The very few times I'll open limp in early to middle position with a hand like K J o is on a passive table where I'm pretty sure I won't be raised.

2. I'm Improving on this. I lean more towards folding a marginal hand like A T with a raise in front, rather than flatting or raising.
But yes, I'll 3 bet jj+ and AQ, AK. It's also player dependant.
I'll flat or raise AJ, TT if I know the initial raiser has a wide range.

I still have a lot to learn. But I feel my play is slowly improved.

My last session of 3/6 I showed a profit of 15 after 7 hours.
Wheee!

If only my pocket AA didn't run up against a set of 7's
regarding your answers:

1. This is actually terrible. KJo plays much, much worse multiway than HU. If you're not raising because you don't want to call a reraise, just fold it.

2. When it's a raise in front of you (no callers yet) you should really only flat with bigger suited Broadways in later position. Middle pocket pairs 66-99 are OK if the table tends to all come along for 2 small bets since you should have reasonable implied odds when you flop your set. But if you get too few callers, you're folding OTF too often to make calling +EV. Depending on your read and position of the initial raiser, 3-bet or fold 77-99 if you don't expect a family pot when you flat.

Limping middle pairs after a couple of limpers is OK in loose-passive games, but you need to get in the habit of raising preflop and on the flop in a lot of situations where you are normally calling.

Now, with hands like KQs, QJs, OTB if it's raised and there are more than 2 callers, these hands can bet 3-bet since everyone now comes along for the extra bet. With hands that play well multi-way building a big pot early gives you the opportunity to correctly see the turn with otherwise weak draws. This is a key place where limit strategy is radically different than NL.
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Old 08-01-2019, 12:26 PM   #30
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Mostly agree, but I really think it's best not to flat anything first in after a raise. In the rare case where two to three people behind you are playing any two cards for two bets then maybe some hands like suited Broadway and middle suited aces, otherwise 3bet or dump.
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Old 08-01-2019, 12:33 PM   #31
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

I am making notes of all the advice. As everyone else reading this who is looking to improve should be doing.

Winning in Tough Hold 'em games by Nick "stoxtrade" Gruidzen ?

I'm still currently reading Miller's "small stakes hold 'em" and I'm not done with the book yet . Gruidzens book seems to be focused on high stakes hold 'em and short hand play.
Would I not be moving ahead of myself? Should I not wait or just buy the book now?
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Old 08-01-2019, 12:53 PM   #32
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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I am making notes of all the advice. As everyone else reading this who is looking to improve should be doing.

Winning in Tough Hold 'em games by Nick "stoxtrade" Gruidzen ?

I'm still currently reading Miller's "small stakes hold 'em" and I'm not done with the book yet . Gruidzens book seems to be focused on high stakes hold 'em and short hand play.
Would I not be moving ahead of myself? Should I not wait or just buy the book now?
Don't read stoxtrade's book. it's for high limit shorthanded online games. wait until you've graduated to the 80/160 at the Encore for that.

Miller's book will give you the best conceptual framework.
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Old 08-01-2019, 01:33 PM   #33
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Don't read stoxtrade's book. it's for high limit shorthanded online games. wait until you've graduated to the 80/160 at the Encore for that.

Miller's book will give you the best conceptual framework.
Ha ha ha ha "wait until you've graduated to 80/160" !!
I may come across as a little delusional sometimes, but it's usually more the whiskey speaking. Cheap whiskey with a heap of ice and ginger ale in a tall glass is a perfect remedy for the summer heat. Just a little quid pro quo.

Thanks for the advice on the book recommendation.
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Old 08-01-2019, 01:36 PM   #34
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Ha ha ha ha "wait until you've graduated to 80/160" !!
I may come across as a little delusional sometimes, but it's usually more the whiskey speaking. Cheap whiskey with a heap of ice and ginger ale in a tall glass is a perfect remedy for the summer heat. Just a little quid pro quo.

Thanks for the advice on the book recommendation.
You're welcome. And extra credit for knowing that whiskey (which contracts blood vessels and cools the skin) is better in the summer than beer (which dumps carbs into the stomach and raises body temp).
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Old 08-01-2019, 01:58 PM   #35
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

https://pin.it/oznwh5ofwmsdvv
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Old 08-01-2019, 06:26 PM   #36
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Don't read stoxtrade's book. it's for high limit shorthanded online games. wait until you've graduated to the 80/160 at the Encore for that.



Miller's book will give you the best conceptual framework.
I disagree. Yes nepeene should finish small stakes hold'em (ignoring everything about hand protection) and also read hold'em for advanced players. Then they should also read Stox's book.

Stox talks about when and why of 3-bet or fold. He also talks about blind stealing and heads up pots. Live players typically play so poorly in those spots that you can gain a big edge by learning them. They will be relevant in a 20/40 game I guarantee it.

Nepeene go to the preflop check up thread and post one hypothetical hand at a time where you want to cold call. Watch what people say.

Just be aware that your opponents' play style should inform your decisions so when you read these books think about why they make the recommendations they do.

In general, learning more about the game is better. Full stop.
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Old 08-01-2019, 09:28 PM   #37
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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I disagree. Yes nepeene should finish small stakes hold'em (ignoring everything about hand protection) and also read hold'em for advanced players. Then they should also read Stox's book.

Stox talks about when and why of 3-bet or fold. He also talks about blind stealing and heads up pots. Live players typically play so poorly in those spots that you can gain a big edge by learning them. They will be relevant in a 20/40 game I guarantee it.

Nepeene go to the preflop check up thread and post one hypothetical hand at a time where you want to cold call. Watch what people say.

Just be aware that your opponents' play style should inform your decisions so when you read these books think about why they make the recommendations they do.

In general, learning more about the game is better. Full stop.

I don't know when and if I'll be able to jump to the 20/40 stakes.
I'm confident and experienced enough, this isn't my first rodeo, as might be apparent, that I'll be able to move up to 6 /12 eventually.

Thanks a lot. I'm definitely willing to put in the work. I'll do that.

Last edited by Nepeeme2008; 08-01-2019 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 08-02-2019, 12:59 PM   #38
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Originally Posted by Nepeeme2008 View Post
...
I mean, we're usually folding our blinds, aren't we?
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepeeme2008 View Post
...
My last session of 3/6
...
At 3/6, you are almost never folding your big blind. If there is one tight raiser and it folds to your in the BB, then yes, a fold is often correct. But that rarely happens at 3/6. More typical at 3/6 is there are 3 limpers and a raise, and then it folds to you the BB - if you assume the limpers will call the raise, you are getting 9-1 odds to call. Most hands are playable getting 9-1 odds, and often you will get better odds than that. Perhaps there are 5 limpers and you are in the SB, if you assume the BB isn't going to raise, you are getting 13-1 odds to call. At that point you can call with any two cards.
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Old 08-02-2019, 01:12 PM   #39
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

The only thing I would add to daveopies post is to be ready to pitch the hand postflop if the flop and conditions don't favor continuing which will be the case very often. A lot of people dont like "wasting" a small bet to see the flop knowing they're usually going to end up pitching it but as long as you flop something worth continuing with more than 1 time in 10 (actually less because of implied odds dont have time to do the math right now) you're winning that battle.

Another area that's a common struggle is defending the bb with q2o and getting a dry queen high flop. It's hard to fold that hand but its correct fat more often than not.

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Old 08-05-2019, 11:19 AM   #40
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Ok, let's keep my mikro small stakes blog going!

Played a session again Saturday and it didn't end well.
I think I realize now why op and some of us might be struggling in small stakes limit. I'm sure these revelations of mine are nothing new to the more experienced players. I'm looking for thoughts on weather my conclusions are right or wrong and where my false thinking might be.

I made a pretty big mistake in the beginning of my session.
Raised JJ and got to callers.
I bet out, in position, after both villains checked, on a Q high board and both villains called. That slowed me down on the Turn and I checked back.
A T fell in the river. First villain to act bet. I was ready to call his bet.
But the second villain called. This made me think, one must have a Q, no way my hand is good. I folded. Villain 1 has a T and second villain called with bottom pair.
Ha ha ha. I can laugh about it now. How was I to know that villain 2 was such a monkey. Villain one bet I guess, thinking he had the best hand, because I slowed down on the Turn. I don't know. This was pretty much after I sat down

So, otherwise I was playing pretty good I think. Later I switched tables because one of the guys was being rude and abrasive to the dealers and constant complaining about his bad luck.

Second table I was playing pretty good for the most part.
This is where my epiphany comes in.
I started bleeding away chips because I continued to play aggressively despite the table being a very stereotypical call happy limit game.
My raises were still getting multiple callers. I couldn't thin down the limpers. Every hand was going multi way.
You can't continue with aggression in most multi way pots.
One pair is almost never good. My hands hardly held. I'd raise with AJ and hit an ace and lose to A 4. I couldn't win many hands and bled away my 100 buy in.

I don't know what the answers are exactly but tables with constant multi way callers in low limit are virtually impossible to beat .

Sorry for the long post. Thoughts?
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:16 PM   #41
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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Ok, let's keep my mikro small stakes blog going!

Played a session again Saturday and it didn't end well.
I think I realize now why op and some of us might be struggling in small stakes limit. I'm sure these revelations of mine are nothing new to the more experienced players. I'm looking for thoughts on weather my conclusions are right or wrong and where my false thinking might be.

I made a pretty big mistake in the beginning of my session.
Raised JJ and got to callers.
I bet out, in position, after both villains checked, on a Q high board and both villains called. That slowed me down on the Turn and I checked back.
A T fell in the river. First villain to act bet. I was ready to call his bet.
But the second villain called. This made me think, one must have a Q, no way my hand is good. I folded. Villain 1 has a T and second villain called with bottom pair.
Ha ha ha. I can laugh about it now. How was I to know that villain 2 was such a monkey. Villain one bet I guess, thinking he had the best hand, because I slowed down on the Turn. I don't know. This was pretty much after I sat down

So, otherwise I was playing pretty good I think. Later I switched tables because one of the guys was being rude and abrasive to the dealers and constant complaining about his bad luck.

Second table I was playing pretty good for the most part.
This is where my epiphany comes in.
I started bleeding away chips because I continued to play aggressively despite the table being a very stereotypical call happy limit game.
My raises were still getting multiple callers. I couldn't thin down the limpers. Every hand was going multi way.
You can't continue with aggression in most multi way pots.
One pair is almost never good. My hands hardly held. I'd raise with AJ and hit an ace and lose to A 4. I couldn't win many hands and bled away my 100 buy in.

I don't know what the answers are exactly but tables with constant multi way callers in low limit are virtually impossible to beat .

Sorry for the long post. Thoughts?
1) lose the ego. hand 1, you were the biggest donkey of all for making an awful fold. you have no reason to think you're JJ is no good on the turn, keep betting. this is not NL.

2) if i had 9 players calling me down to the river all the time id be retired by now. you beat high rake limit games by winning a few big pots. not lots of small ones.

3) $100 is less than nothing in 3/6.

4) if you like money, quit playing 3/6. it's unbeatable due to rake.

Last edited by NittyOldMan1; 08-05-2019 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:25 PM   #42
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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I don't know what the answers are exactly but tables with constant multi way callers in low limit are virtually impossible to beat
Just variance. When your hands hold up you win bigger pots. Trust me, raise your 88, get 6 callers for 2 bets, then someone in the BB donks the J-8-2 rainbow flops you raise and everybody sees the turn, then 2 of the mcall you OTT and OTR and your set scoops a giant pot.
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:39 PM   #43
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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1) lose the ego. hand 1, you were the biggest donkey of all for making an awful fold. you have no reason to think you're JJ is no good on the turn, keep betting. this is not NL.

2) if i had 9 players calling me down to the river all the time id be retired by now. you beat high rake limit games by winning a few big pots. not lots of small ones.

3) $100 is less than nothing in 3/6.

4) if you like money, quit playing 3/6. it's unbeatable due to rake.
Yeah, I was the donkey, that's how I felt. No arguments there.

The 100 was after 7 hours. I didn't lose it after sitting down.
I intended to play as long as possible, but I guess I was tilted and didn't want to reach into my pocket. It's also like 300 for nl!
Ok ok, maybe it's an ego thing

Yes, I agree. 3/6 is unbeatable.
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:51 PM   #44
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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My raises were still getting multiple callers. I couldn't thin down the limpers. Every hand was going multi way.
You can't continue with aggression in most multi way pots.
One pair is almost never good. My hands hardly held. I'd raise with AJ and hit an ace and lose to A 4. I couldn't win many hands and bled away my 100 buy in.
In the JJ hand, since you were in position, my line against 2 villains would be to bet flop and bet turn, but then check back the river since by that point either they have a Q and are not folding or were on a draw and missed. I use that line a lot against 1 or 2 opponents when I have a pocket pair but an overcard flops. This line has the advantage of it looks exactly like the line you would take with AA, KK, QQ, AQ, so if they get into the habit of calling you down, you'll make money in other similar situations.

As for your comments about general aggression - you are usually not trying to push people out, especially preflop. They shouldn't fold since they are getting great odds (see my last post about you calling from the blinds). What you are attempting to do by raising is push your equity. Against 4 average plays, maybe AK will win 25% of the time (probably more). If you are going to win 25% of the time but you only have to put in 20% of the money, that's great - you should be raising and making bigger pots. That's how you win at the low limits - you should be more aggressive than others so that when you do win pots, they are bigger than pots the other players win in similar situations.

Question (to make you think a bit) - after 4 limpers and you are on the button, what are all the hands you would raise with?

Also, just because you raise preflop doesn't mean you have to bet the flop if you miss. With so many people in the pot, someone usually hits something, so only continuation bet with hands that hit the flop somehow (including when you flop a draw).
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Old 08-05-2019, 01:38 PM   #45
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

I definitely went overboard with aggression in multi way pots.
Small stakes holdem by Miller and Sklansky definitely covers when it's best to check instead of continuing.

Many times, I ended up building a huge pot for the donkeys at the table, not myself. They would have never done the raising themselves.

I sometimes played like a maniac!
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Old 08-05-2019, 02:31 PM   #46
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

Correction. I didn't play like a maniac.
A maniac being someone who plays aggressively virtually every hand.
I was folding most of the time. But I was overaggressive in many hands I did play.
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Old 08-05-2019, 06:02 PM   #47
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

ha, just took a peak at Atlas.

Looks like they have 2 4/8 tables running instead of 3/6. at Boston Encore
Other games being offered are
20/40
40/80
60/120
and
80/160
but none are running.
Even the 20/40 hardly runs on weekends.

Is the 4/8 worth playing?
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:45 AM   #48
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

With respect to rake, 8/16 is the first game barely worth playing.

This is why I hate that US won't legalize and regulate online smartly. Live rake is too expensive for people to play small stakes, but micros rake is sane (like 20/40 live). It's like legalizing heroin but not weed.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:48 AM   #49
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

With respect to pumping up pots, yes you're variance will be high in small stakes but you will drag down the big pots a little more than your fair share of the time if you play a tight preflop strategy.

Just think about all the sklansky bucks you're winning should i not play any more or switch games?
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:51 AM   #50
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Re: should i not play any more or switch games?

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With respect to rake, 8/16 is the first game barely worth playing.

This is why I hate that US won't legalize and regulate online smartly. Live rake is too expensive for people to play small stakes, but micros rake is sane (like 20/40 live). It's like legalizing heroin but not weed.
Huh? Where can you get enough volume playing LHE online? No games at all on any of the sites I play on in the US.
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