Villian is playing about 60% of all hands preflop but almost always limps. Called 23o from MP against my KK preflop raise. Didn't raise JJ from LP.

Two limpers to me on button . I call with 33 . Both Blinds come along. Five to the flop. (5 SB)
AK3
Blinds check, bet from MP. Villian calls and I call. Blinds fold. Three to Turn. (4BB)
5 on Turn.
Original better leads out. Villian raises. I tank for a minute. I wanted to raise on the turn, but now I am a seeing monsters. What could he have: the sets-- AA, KK, 55 the two pairs Ax Kx 35, the st8- 24, or some other drawing hand like Ax or Kx. I fold because I am weak and confused.
Again, any help is appreciated.

Raise the flop. Build a big pot now and protect your hand from gutshots. Ap call the turn raise. He can have any type of bull**** two pair. I think calling is best because the original bettor is probably drawing dead so we don’t mind him coming along.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How is the villain playing only 60% of hands but called your raise with 23o?

Raise the flop because there is no guarantee it will get bet on the turn and you would love to induce excessive action.

I would 3 bet the turn.

+1 for raise flop. It's multiway and at these stakes people like to pay way to much to see the turn so give them a chance to put more. If the flop was wetter I could see the argument for waiting for a safe turn, but just step on it here.

As played I 3! the turn but I think call is only slightly worse. Folding turn is the much worse play

Fold preflop, raise flop

Overlimping small pocket pair here is good in my book. This table is likely going to pay off when he hits the set.

1.) high rake

2.) only two limpers

3.) low limit players don’t often go off

1.) high rake

2.) only two limpers

3.) low limit players don’t often go off

Hey PrGarland, welcome to the limit forum.


A little tough love coming for a hand that you played too passively and then folded incorrectly. You'll get it right next time.

If our hero calls, this is a 5 way pot. That's fine for cheap set mining.

You have to raise this flop. It is literally your job. You are very likely to have the best hand, and they will call with worse. You really want them to improve to a worse hand and maybe put in more action with that. You have to feel that AA or KK is much less likely than random, because of the limped pot. You have the effective nuts. They're more likely to call a raise now, if they know stuff about pot odds.
Folding is a crime against mathematics. You're telling me that AA or KK limped preflop. Just called a flop bet, and now is the most likely hand on the turn?

This list of hands is a list of monsters under the bed syndrome (MUBS). You forget A5, A3, combos, which are beloved by bad players everywhere. Also, K5, K3, which might be played offsuit, but loose players love suited K's. If someone can have limp/called AA (not that likely), maybe they slowplayed AK for maximum screwplaying? They limp AKo preflop because it isn't a pair. Flop the world, and get sneaky. Turn, low straight is scary so raise? There are so many combos of 2 pair+ that you beat that folding is terrible. You should have raised flop. You probably should raise turn. It is closer because terrible/passive players have put in a big street raise. I probably want one more raise to go in, so I raise it. If the villain smooth 4 bets, I just call down.


I wouldn't totally rule out AQ-AT and flush draws (especially pair + FD) when looking at combos. If a villain had a decent Axs, why wouldn't he raise the lone guy betting flop and turn? That would actually be good poker.

1) Fair

2) the blinds are coming, oh yes they are coming

3) You mean don't pay off? They rarely spew on big streets but multiple opponents will hang out and pay 1 to 2 bets on multiple streets with very little equity when you hit a set thinking they just need their 5-6 outs with middle pair or over cards to be good or they are just hoping this is the time you don't have it. A hope that springs eternal every hand and you can't crush with value bets no matter how hard you try

Bottom line is that we don’t come to the casino to fold sets because we fear set over set. If you never fold a set in limit you can’t be making much of a mistake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I mean on a QJ3T9 board, I can fold a set of 3's on the river.

I mean raises are rare. I think preflop is fine/close, but I’d fold. Probably call with two more limpers. Rake is huge

I have seen players limp with AA or KK and in 3-6 it would be more common but still very rare.

Given that you are in a perfect situation with an underset to the likely Ax and Kx your opponents are playing.

By raising you make gut shots pay (QJ, QT JT) and get paid off when they overplay their limped AK or rare A3 and 3-bet you.

And the more you build the pot, the more you tie your opponent's to the hand and get them to call with weaker values.

As far as for hands that beat you, it was a limped pot so why is "55" calling the flop getting 8/1.

Maybe the turn raiser has a suited spade ace and with top pair, questionable kicker and the nut flush draw think the it's a "free showdown raise" with outs to the nut flush.

The other hands you mention you are beating so 3-bet the turn and hope not to get unlucky.

Let's say we want to get 10:1 when we win to make up for the times we lose and maybe a couple tough decisions we screw up post flop. Call that generous return on our single small bet investment. We put in 1 bet preflop with the other players putting in 4. So postflop, we need to find 6 more small bets for us and 1.5 for the rake? The reason ROI is so easy is that our investment was so low.

Worst case we flop a set and get a single bet on every street? OK, that's 5 small bets. We miss our "required ROI" by 2.5 small bets. We're still covering our odds to flop a set, by the way. If just two people see showdown, we easily make our number. That isn't getting in raises anywhere. More often, we get to raise someone exactly once (passive game) and 2 or 3 people call us down. It is trivial to make 7.5 small bets post flop in a loose game.

Your argument makes perfect sense in a raised pot, because you're then looking to make 7.5 big bets in additional winnings and in a passive game it is hard to get a stubborn guy making thin value raises with top pair and a good kicker. The other nice thing about this smaller pot is that the mistakes people are making with "draws" is much bigger. 55 shouldn't have had the opportunity to call for 1 bet, even though 8:1 was a mistake. If someone with a pocket pair wants to call the raise our hero put in on the flop, they needed 22:1 and they're getting like 5 or 6. All of that profit goes to us. Our OP should also think about this the other way, as he correctly puts in this raise and gets called down by KJo. Once you see you're playing with calling stations, thin value and not that thin value raises are the stuff.

7 to one to hit a set on the flop? You are getting 4 to 1 minus the rake.

I like slowplaying. Limp pot, no draw they can put you on.

Was this your actual thought process? Because you put your opponent on a reasonable range of hands, and you're ahead of that range, and yet you folded anyway.

Could he have a straight? Yes, he could. That's the top of his range. But you still have 10 outs to beat a straight.

Could he have a set? Yes, he could. But there are only three combos each of AA, KK, and 55—and how likely is it that he would have played each of them this way (not raising the AA and KK either preflop or on the flop, and chasing to hit a 5 after the flop brings two overcards)? Not very likely.

There are many more combos of two pairs that he might play this way. That's the bulk of his range.

There are also many combos of Ax that he might play this way, and possibly also Kx, as you noted.

He might also have a combo draw that he's raising as a semibluff: something like QJ, QT, JT, 64, 74, and possibly also 2x and 4x. You describe him as loose-passive preflop, so maybe it's unlikely that he'd play a combo draw so aggressively on the turn, but this is the bottom of his range.

When you consider his entire range, you're ahead. That's why others have recommended that you reraise on the turn. If you're scared and confused, take one step back from reraising and just call. But don't take two steps back and fold.

I play in LA so I’ll probably still call.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks much for all the great feedback.
It seems I made mistakes on every street going for an arguably okay call preflop, although reading all this feedback I would fold with only two limpers preflop because of the onerous rake, to a bad call on the turn, allowing all the gutshots to come along for the right price, to the worst, by a long shot, decision of folding the turn.

My range considerations of the raiser were after the hand, when I was rethinking "Why did I fold?" In real time, his raise surprised me and I just made the worst decision out of the the three in front of me. A call or raise on the turn are both better than a fold, which I now see as inexcusable.

I am rereading Miller's Small Stakes and see a lot of everyone's feedback fitting into his thinking.

Just downloaded PokerStove, keeping Miller's book handy, and posting here should lead to some improvements.

This plus finding and reading the old archived digest posts were how I got going . Best of luck. I truly believe all the information to improve our play is out there we just have to have want to study up.

3 bet the turn the raiser has two pair here most of the time.

limping pre is fine to keep you from falling asleep. given the ridic rake in this game though i doubt any hands other than 99-AA, AK, AQ are profitable. maybe KQs. of course playing 10% or less of your hands in 3/6 is about as exciting as watching golf, so keep that in mind.

I love watching golf

Raise the flop please.

I folded a set of queens on the flop once about 15 years ago. I dropped the wireless mouse and the batteries fell out. I couldn’t put them back in time and I timed out.

That’s the last time I folded a set in limit holdem.