I'm probably going to be getting back into poker this year. We'll see if life throws curveballs at me to prevent it, but it looks like I'll be playing regularly for the first time since early summer 2019.

Since most of the poker I play is live SSLHE, I dusted off my old copy of SSHE intending to re-read it from cover to cover several times.

DISCLAIMER: I haven't read the "preflop checkup spots" post yet

I remember a lot of debates about how the book recommends a lot of limping with starting hands that play well multiway and have little if any preflop edge. I gotta say, in early and middle position at a table where 4 to 6 people are seeing every flop and a raise means exactly AA, KK or QQ, I don't understand the hate for open limping or limping along with these hands as long as you can be reasonably sure you're going to get at LEAST a 4-way pot if not 6-way and rarely get raised.

Without getting too caught up in the minutiae of exactly what the ranges should be, thoughts?

I'll probably have more conversational questions later but this seems like a reasonable place to start.

If you never open limp a hand you’ll be doing just fine.

I think the value of limping in certain extreme spots is marginal compared to the value of improving and getting comfortable playing aggressively and having an aggressive table image. As you move up limping becomes worse and worse.

That being said I think limping some hands in some spots is probably fine at low stakes. Just don’t think most low stakes players can actually mentally apply their strategy and end up limping too much.

Open limping may be sensitive to high rake. You would need pot sizes reliably growing far past the rake cap to consider it. If the game's that aggressive, raising those hands may exceed the +ev of limping them.

This.

I still see players who are routinely open limping at 40/80 and 60/120.

Surely it's at least SOMEWHAT table dependent, no? I mean if you have 78s UTG, limping is likely to get you a 7-way pot but raising is likely to get you a 3-way pot it's better to limp, no? Of course if all 6 people are going to call anyway it would be better to raise.

Pretty sure SSHE tells you to fold 87s UTG. But it will tell you to limp EP with something like JTs. If it is a game where lots of other people will usually limp and you have a volume hand like that one, I think it is fine to limp it in EP. It doesn't really depend on the stakes, but the tendencies of the other players at the table.

It’s interesting because although it’s true that most people don’t pay good attention, if someone is paying attention and we make a great hand with 78s, we’ll probably win a way bigger pot if we raise pre and might clean up some rio by folding out hands like Q rag, J rag suited.

Still not convinced playing 87s utg will show profit but I’d rather raise if I was going to play.

Don't know what you mean about people paying attention. Attention to what, and what would that change?

Level 0 vs Level 1 vs Level 2 etc.

If someone is only thinking about what they have then if you raise pre they don’t care at all. After all it only matters what they have. So repping something is completely meaningless to these players.

They abound at sshe and are the main people you will be making your money from.

They could not think about what you have but actually notice how much it costs for them to call.

I mean I don’t disagree that’s why I said raising is better than limping, to clean up outs. If you limp they will certainly call with J rag and Q rag suited, hell even 92s might get in there.

I learned this game from old poker videos from Card runners and Deuces cracked. I followed what the good players on two plus two said.

They said,

Don't ever donk
Don't FSDR
Raise or fold
Don't cold call
Don't 3 bet the flop IP HU
Always C bet 3 handed.

Times have changed especially with solver work. Doing some of these plays would bring you ridicule in the forums. I have learned that there is a time and place for all of these plays. I lost out on a lot of money not having a 3 bet range pre hu against some players. I'm seeing a strange amount of good players open limping in the past year when they never would have prior. This is one area where I still only open raise but it does make sense to me in some configurations.

Lets say the game has been loose. 5-7 players seeing a flop. There is a decent amount of raising but it's not too crazy. The pots have been huge. Why wouldn't I limp any pair? Maybe any ace suited? In this game if I raise 77's I'm gonna be OOP probably 4 way. Is that a good thing or is it better to limp UTG and see a more mw pot that may still be 2 bets but might just be one. Certainly in 8/16 or below this would make sense especially with potential jackpots and high hands.

I certainly still adhere to those first four things.

There’s times and players where you should three bet the flop and there is DEFINITELY times you should check three handed

I usually don’t donk heads up but I think donking works on certain boards multiway or as an exploit in super aggressive games with nutted value hand.

Yeah I missed the first one. There’s times to donk

The player I might consider donking into HU is the player I will 3 bet pre instead of flat. He would be a fit or fold type who checks the flop a ton.

If the pre flop raiser is to my right in a large MW pot and I have two pair or a set I will donk unless I know they will bet.

You are correct - my bad. SSHE does tell you to fold 78s UTG. In a "tight" game it tells you to only play two suited cards both at least a T, but in loose games it adds Axs, 98s, T9s, J9s, Q9s and K9s.

I'm going to move on to another topic in SSHE that's actually related to the first one.

Raising the flop or the turn to face the field (or at least the majority of the field) with calling two bets cold.

The funny thing is, if you never open-limp a hand you'll very rarely be put in positions where it's possible to do so. How often does the player immediately to your right donk into you when you raise preflop (or a player 1 or 2 seats to your right where after the donk it's folded to you and there are still at least 2 villains between you and the donker, but I don't want to overcomplicate the question)? I can count on my fingers the number of times I actually remember that happening.

I guess if I limp a hand UTG and the SB or BB raise preflop it could put me in that position. Or if I limp UTG, the button raises, and the blinds both fold either preflop or to the button's C-bet.

I guess if we get, for example, a 6-way limped pot a the player to my right is the first to bet and it's folded to me that could happen.

I guess the question is this: How often do you find yourself with OPPORTUNITIES to face the field with calling two bets cold?

A related question is, you limp QTs UTG, 2 callers, the button raises, the BB calls, you call and the limpers call (10.5sb). The flop is JT4r. It's checked around to the button who bets. Do you pretty much ALWAYS raise here, whether or not the BB calls? Does it change your decision to raise here it if it's JT4tt rather than JT4r (I'd say that would make you want to raise MORE frankly)? Do you have to have a LOT of history on the button to believe he would literally only c-bet this flop with exactly a jack, QQ, KK or AA (in which case I think we'd still call here - it's unfortunate that we're not closing the action but at most passive tables we're still going to get to see a cheap turn)?

I don't mean to hit so much at once, but how much difference does it make that we have QTs vs. T9s? If we make our two pair with QTs it sets up a redraw for anyone with an ace or a king. Then again, we don't want to see aces or kings anyway. With T9s, it sets up a redraw for anyone with an 8 which does add a little danger that wasn't there on the flop.

I'll stop there.

I don’t limp QTs UTG. But if you called the Button raise from the BB then yes CR flop

Ahhhhh yes, nice to see the condescending attitude is still here lol. And why wouldn't it be, i see the same ole characters, lol. You don't think low stakes players can actually apply their strategy, LMAO! Your playing at loose 4/8 table where people play so bad you literally know what half the table has after the flop! Going off 5-8 ways each time, you don't need "extreme" spots to limp hands that play well multiway. And the idea that doing so is bad because ur not preparing yourself for larger games is ridiculous! YOU PLAY DIFF IN LARGER GAMES, hell you play diff in these 4/8 games if ur at a tough table! And yes there are tough 4/8 games....Learn how to play the game correctly...how to punish this and take advantage of that...and apply those ideas to the game at hand! If that means your limping almost all ur hands so be it!

You raise with 87s utg and you're folding out hands, which is what you don't want! Ideally, you limp 87s utg and you get a family pot where no one has raised, that's the idea situation.

[QUOTE=ninefingershuffle;58441838]If you never open limp a hand you’ll be doing just fine.[/QUOTE

I don't think any linear strategy is correct! Hence, to say NEVER open limp, most be wrong!

If you're not limping QTs UTG in a loose 4/8 game.....you giving away money lol.

You open limp QTs UTG and get 6 callers...$24 You raise QTs UTG and get 2 callers $16....$8 less and you significantly reduced the amount of chips going in on flop, turn, river! And the rake is one of the main reasons you DONT want to raise this hand UTG. you fold out everyone except the BB, now your HU in a $16 pot thats going to be raked $6. As opposed to be in a $24 pot with 6 other people who will chase and pay you off if you hit! You can't apply NFL concepts to HIGHSCHOOL football, not without some adjustment. And you can't optimally play a 4/8 game using 20/40 tactics and theory!