Preflop Im not sure what your sizing was but usually against limps when i want to raise/squeeze, I just go 3x the big blind+ n amount of big blinds where n is the number of people that limped in. So if there were 5 limpers, I would raise 3 x the big blind +5 big blinds. I could be wrong on this however.

This is really simple situation. I dont see what is wrong with check folding most of the time. Limping means they can have a wide range of hands and I dont expect most pairs to fold to one bet so if they limped with like 87 76 , 88 99 or a weak suited Qx type hand or even QT Q9 offsuit theyre all sticking around. And since theres so many people in this pot i really dont expect alot of fold equity, maybe if you have reads people fold the flop alot you might get away with a cbet bluff here but its quite ambitious to hope to get everyone to fold right away multiway. I think a cbet bluff here would be profitable if it was 3 way pot. More then 3 way cbet bluffing is just too ambitious. cbetting here for range purposes might be okay but I dont think people will have a bluffing range here on this dry flop multiway anyways. I would like a cbet on flops like QQ2r, JJ6r, 449r, flops like that cause those are the super dry flops where AK will be good alot of the time even mulitway.

I dont like check calling because yes most of the time you still have 6 outs to improve to a pair but sometimes your pair wont even be good if your opponent has 2 pair or a set which is a reasonable possibility, so if you make a pair which wont happen that often sometimes itll just lead to you losing more money then you should have. I dont expect your opponents to be bluffing here either once they bet on this dry board... There are no draws on this board. Even the craziest of players would not just fire something like KT into 4 people like this so I dont like a call cause AK is almost never good here once someone bets. If your thinking about floating to bluff someone off a weak Qx a later street thats also quite ambitious because your opponents will expect you to just cbet your Qx+ on the flop more often then not, they might give you credit for QQ but if they have Qx they heavily block that.

If you wanted to bluff this you would have to fire 3 barrels, so if you have reads your opponents arent stations and can make the fold by the river or maybe turn then 3 barreling is probably profitable since you have 6 outs most of the time to go with your bluff and you pick up equity/the best hand on any broadway card. Most of the time if someone 3 barrel this spot they will almost always have a strong Qx hand and KK AA more often then not, this is probably one of your few bluffs and generally speaking 3 barreling here is quite strong.

I think if you really wanted to win this pot x/r is your best option, I can see someone x/r this flop with AQ+ here and your opponents can really only fight back with only 3 hands, 77 and 22 and the rare Q7 but some people wont even limp that. If they call your flop raise then continuing on any turn is the play. if they are reasonable they have to fold anything that not a set or 2 pair.. You have a strong range advatange and x/r and continuing on a dry board is just insanely strong and people dont usually bluff here so its very creditable.

TL/DR;
Overall this is just a simple spot, I dont see why anyone would feel bad about x/f ace high on this flop with so many people. Whiffing overcards happens to everyone, its nothing special. You cant always make a pair. Raising preflop was the right play and if you get a bunch of callers and miss the flop oh well just save some money and move on to the next hand. You didnt get unlucky/coolered in anyway.

Would it change your analysis if it were a LHE hand? DalTXColtsFan also posts NL hands in BQ, so the confusion is understandable. LHE the reason people are talking about calling getting 14:1.

Signature move is a strong statement and an exaggeration, but it's certainly not uncommon for me to raise preflop and then check-fold the flop.

I finished 2015 with a 1.12 BB/HR win rate at the 8/16 level and I was pretty unlucky to finish that low; I was sitting over 2 BB/HR as late as the first week of October before the worst downswing of my career annihilated my WR in the last two months. I just can't imagine that not constantly check-calling my nothing hands when I have multiple opponents is really costing me that much money in the long run. I could definitely be making mistakes - that's why I post here - to learn - not to claim that I'm better than everyone else. I just don't feel like I'm giving up much of an edge by folding when I don't have anything and everything but the pot odds are highly unfavorable. I'm never folding AK on the Q72 flop for one bet, but when the flop comes 765 two toned with none of my suit and 4 people have put money in the pot, I'm usually just over it.

This is not a matter of guessing, if you do your homework with ranges and you still conclude that you have less than 7% equity keep folding, otherwise you could be making more.

If you played 1000+ hours this year that's a pretty good winrate, congrats. You do know that it's irrelevant to making your point, right? I'll share a similarly irrelevant fact: It's been many years since I play any volume of live 8/16, but I have a higher lifetime winrate, doesn't prove anything either.

Sidenote: if playing a lot of hours in great action games with high rake, be ready to have a "worst downswing of your career" frequently (once every couple of years) 2BB/hr is a complete pipe dream unless you are playing in a game with $3 rake or all your opponents just arrived in a time machine from 1999.

I'm prepared for all of that especially since I plan to go up in stakes. I would never expect to maintain a 2 BB/HR WR - I was well aware that I was running above average. However, I do think 1.5 BB/HR is plenty doable.

If he is foldy when whiffed, increase slightly your bet/raise range to fold him out and clean up your outs/protect your hand. If he is going to call, don't do this, but be wary when he bets on later streets as he caught his outs.

If he bets, fold if you whiffed and don't fish when behind (except strong draws) your 3,6 outs to the board aren't clean...

We like weak tight/ weak passive players that are only aggressive with their strongest hands...

Depends on what stakes you play now and where you are moving to imo.

I like the thread idea. I ck call 1 in first example. I'll post another flopped overs spot. Loose passive button,sb,bb.
Open AK mp. Button calls. Sb and bb defend.
267
Checked to you. Plan for the hand?

Compared to the hand in the OP we just have slightly better position, 3 villains instead of 4 and a slightly more coordinated board.

I would also say a difference is that there's a slightly higher chance of getting worse hands to call, i.e. JT, J9, T9 - in the OP they might be afraid someone has a Q but here they have to overcards and might want to chase.

But I think the flop is an easy check. We rarely have the best hand. Even if we do have the best hand a small bet isn't enough to charge two-overcard draws. If nobody bets we take a free turn. If there's a bet and a raise we can safely pitch. If there's a bet then we're looking at either 9, 10 or 11 to 1 on a call - we don't quite have immediate odds but with the implied odds and the high probability of making the best hand with any of our 6 outs plus our BDNFD this is an easy call.

If we pick up 9 more outs on the turn we're seeing the river. If not, then we re-evaluate - based on the turn card how likely will we be to make the best hand if we pair our K or A and how likely are worse hands to call? Then weigh that against the pot odds and make the right decision.

Those are my thoughts.

Maybe put the villains on ranges? What does our equity look like?

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

13,767,728 games 8.272 secs 1,664,377 games/sec

Board: 2s 6d 7h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 26.822% 26.64% 00.19% 3667222 25645.50 { AsKs }
Hand 1: 25.552% 25.06% 00.50% 3449927 68152.17 { JJ-22, AJs-A5s, K8s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, KJo+, QJo, JTo, T9o }
Hand 2: 25.538% 25.04% 00.49% 3447974 68118.50 { JJ-22, AJs-A5s, K8s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, KJo+, QJo, JTo, T9o }
Hand 3: 22.088% 21.65% 00.43% 2981393 59720.33 { TT-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, AJo-A2o, K5o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o }


---
The coldcalling ranges I gave BTN and SB might be a bit optomistic, but probably close enough for this exercise. Getting 7 to 1 on a call BB's range is going to be wider than Jennifer Lopez's --- OK, old joke. (I was going to say smile)

I'm not sure what role equity plays in a discussion like this though. Honestly I'm a little surpised we have as much equity as we do, but I don't think we have nearly enough equity to push it in this case, especially not with the risk of getting raised.

Yea I'm sure we have plenty of equity. I'm cbetting here w a backdoor nfd and checking if I don't. That seems kinda arbitrary though and not sure if that's the best way to balance. I think sometimes we take it down ui and sometimes we buy position and get to decide ott to bet or see all 5.

I was talking about 8-16 only.

I would bet. This board is low enough that it is reasonable to think you may have the best hand and there is plenty of worse hands they can call with. Depending on how many players are left, I may bet again on the turn.

I just started a new thread with an "overcards whiffed" hand and had completely forgotten that I started this thread almost 2 years ago!

Re-evaluating the example posed by ShipIt2WinIt in post 33 in what I HOPE is improved understanding since then, my first reaction is that the ranges I gave the BTN and SB for colcalling were way too narrow, not way too wide! In the almost 2 years since this post I've seen villains cold-call garbage that made my jaw drop.

We also have better position in this hand - 1 villain to act after us instead of 3.

The 6 and the 7 are connected but it's hard for any of the villains to have exactly 89, 58 or 45 - it's more likely they have T8, J8, T9, 59, 35 et al, or some sort of pair. Is it even possible to have a pair and gutshot draw on this board?

In my opinion, this spot is close. Whether or not I would bet would depend on how likely I am to face a checkraise from SB or BB. If they seem passive and/or they haven't checkrasied anyone all day I think I would bet here. It's true that the callers will be facing 9 to 1, 10 to 1 and 11 to 1 odds so they won't be making mistakes to call with weak draws but if we can at least fold out or overcharge hands like Q8, J5, T9, J9 etc we improve slightly our chances to win the hand.

EDIT: It would also depend on whether or not villains would raise me with one pair, but when was the last time you saw a villain raise 65 on this board?

IMHO if betting is a mistake in this spot it's a small one at worst, and it makes us look looser and wilder than we really are and helps us get more calls when we actually have hands.

What does smh mean?

I don't have forever. Are you saying that is you have AKo or AKs and miss the flop entirely, then this is basically an unsolved poker problem?*

*Like, e.g., the Riemann conjecture in mathematics.

What does w/e mean?

What does BDFD mean?

So I'm assuming you're bringing this up because you're wondering how others perceive you. So what you're saying is that if you raise from SB/BB you're basically telegraphing your hand post flop. If you bet you've got a piece of the flop or a pocket pair. If you check it's obvious you have two high cards that missed.

It's something I've thought about a lot as well as I've played tons of 4/8 at Winstar ever since it opened in the tiny room. I've read SSHE and WITHG among others so I know that standard practice is a raise every time. But right or wrong, I've come to believe that at this game at Winstar it shouldn't be an automatic raise from the blinds.

Personally, I like to raise some percentage of the time, also like to c-bet a whiff some percentage of the time. A lot of the time it depends on the number of callers and makeup of the table. But regardless, I just don't do the same thing each and every time especially from the blinds.

Have played thousands of hours of limit online and well as a ridiculous amount of limit at Winstar. And right or wrong, I feel those are two totally different games that optimally should be played very differently. Being a numbers guy, it's frustrating that I can't totally explain way this is. It sounds silly not to raise AK from the blinds against terrible opponents.

Perhaps I'm just babbling, I've done very well playing ABC poker at Winstar's 4/8. But I don't feel it's optimal.

You play at Winstar? Then you have me at a disadvantage (albeit a self-imposed one), because if you ever saw me at the table you'd know it's me .

My raising range from the BB after 3 limpers and a complete from the SB is 88+, AJo+, ATs+ and KQs and I will NEVER just check my option with any of those hands. I've heard of people who have even wider raising ranges than that.

AKo, for example, usually has about 33% equity against four limpers. That means I'm going to quintuple my preflop investment 1 time in 3, and I would rather quintuple $8 than $4. Also, if I am lucky enough to make the best hand, I'm likely to get several calls from worse hands that I wouldn't get in a smaller pot.

I just can't imagine the deception gained from checking my option with AKo outweighing what I win by pushing my equity edge.

Besides, if I raise in the BB, the flop comes Q74r, I check-call, a king hits and I bet, are they really going to fold QT or 87 or even 56, 68, 88, 66 or flushdraws because they "know" I have AK? I don't think so.

Similar situation - I'm on the button with AK after 4 limpers and I raise, flop comes Q74r and gets checked through, turn comes 9 putting two to a flush on the board and the SB bets because he "knows I have AK". One, is it such a smart play by the SB to bet into 4 people because one of them has AK? Two, am I likely to win that pot anyway?

The only situation I can think of where there's any value in deception whatsoever is if the pot somehow miraculously ends up heads up, but as you know from playing a lot online, AK is a hard hand to fold heads up anyway.

Just my opinion.

Raising from the blinds is great in a low limit game. The idea that the rake punishes you for this is almost always entirely false. People get so mad when they have to play for more than $4. Nothing they can do will punish you as long as you aren't raising stupid hands. The person before gave a good baseline raising range. Also raising QJs and JTs from the BB vs 4+ players can't be that bad and might be a good idea to raise about 25- 50% of the time. If half the table will raise some of their AK/AQ hands then you can get away with juicing it from the BB with hands as low as KQo, A9s, KTs, T9s.

EDIT:
The general strategy of building big pots with good hands then playing ABC face up after the flop tends to destroy certain low limit textures. The variance will be wild, but it will turn most of the players into pay stations.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...44&postcount=1

This poster wanted feedback on his play on the whole hand, but I thought the flop decision was actually interesting:

2 limpers
Hero in HJ w AK raises
BTN folds
Blinds and limpers call

(10SB)
Flop: 8 2 3

It's a 5-way pot, hero has position on all 4 villains with his BDNFD and overcards.

If I have a read that there's a reasonable chance I could get checkraised, I check behind on this flop and it's not even close.

Readless, I have to lean toward a bet. Our equity here isn't horrible (and ironically is better against 50% hands than against random hands because 50% hands leave out most of the junk that has a 2 or a 3), and if there's any chance at all that betting can buy us a free river I think it's worth investing one bet. I never expect villains to fold, but any villains that do fold are bonus.

4 limpers, SB folds, I'm in the BB with KTs and I raise. Standard? I think so.

All limpers call, flop comes 237 monotone not my suit. I check, first limper bets and they all call.

I'm getting 14:1 on a call. I have 6 outs to top pair. 2 of those 6 outs are trash, so technically I only have 4. Even if I hit one of those 4 there could be a flush redraw out there against me or I could already be drawing dead, and if I pair my 10 there a lot of overcards that can draw out against me.

I'd say I have no more than effectively a 2-out draw at most, meaning I'd need 25:1 to call and see a turn.

Trivially easy fold, as in put your cards on a rocket and launch them into outer space, no?

I’d check

Fold

Ya I'm folding the KTs. It's too ugly of a board and you have 4 cards optimistically that you can hit. Probably closer to 2 on average.

Snap fold.