I'd like to start a thread dedicated to spots where we (correctly) raise our AK/AQ/AJ/KQ/KJ-type hands before the flop but whiff the flop. This is a situation that happens a LOT in live low-stakes limit hold'em so I think it's a very important one to know how to play correctly.

The SSHE book has an excellent chapter on it.

I'll start with one example: Live 4/8, 3 limpers, SB completes, we're in the BB with AKo and we raise. Everyone calls.

Flop comes Q73r (5 players, 10sb). SB checks.

Out of position with 3 players behind me I can't imagine EVER betting a flop that doesn't contain an ace, king, broadway draw or monotone board matching the suit of my A or K. I don't even see the value in betting here so that thinking players don't automatically know I whiffed when I check. Not with 5 players in the hand.

On this specific board (Q73r) I will almost always call one bet back to me no matter who bets. The only player who could realistically be going for a checkraise is the SB, and if he's CRing I'll know it before the action gets back to me.

Feel free to post spots where your overcards whiffed and you weren't sure what to do next.

In the example you gave (AK on a Q73r flop, five players), you played it correctly. You aren't going to bluff all 4 opponents off the hand, so no point in betting. And when it comes back to you to call a flop bet, there were 10 small bets preflop,plus however many go in on the flop, so you easily have the odds to call. That's an easy one.

It gets much tougher when you have one overcard - something like AJ and the flop is Qxx, or AQ on a Kxx flop. Now you only have 3 outs. You need around 15-1 odds, and you may not be getting that from the pot immediately, but if others will call you down if you hit, then you would have the implied odds. But, do others have your outs in their hands, so you don't really have 3 outs? Or, in the cases where there are 2 of a suit on the board, maybe one of your outs gives someone else a flush? Or, do you have hidden outs, like a backdoor flush draw?

I like the idea for the Thread. Thanks!

I agree with check/call for one bet or fold for two in your first example.

If we had AdKd and the flop was Qd7c3h I would bet. I like betting when I have backdoor draws so that when I bet I don't always have a pair or a strong draw. I also think that with one less player involved here I would bet. These are nice balance spots where we are calling a bet anyways. Once in a great while we take it down on the flop, epecially when we have raised from a perceived position of strength.

I don't like it. I'd check call and feel totally fine about my betting range, which is basically 88-JJ, QTs+, KQo, KQs, AQo, AQs, KK, AA, and QQ.

They're getting 11:1 for a flop call, which means that they're correct to call with any Qx, 7x, and 3x, which are plentiful in limpers' ranges. By betting AdKd here, you're just making their calls more profitable for them. You're hardly ever taking it down on the flop against four opponents. You're just setting yourself up to get isolated by a stronger hand with basically no upside.

It may also be helpful to list what other hands we'd play the same up to that flop spot.

Bob you didn't mention 77 and 33 as part of your betting range. Is that because you would just check your option in the BB with those 2 hands?

I would raise all of the hands you listed from the BB in that situation but I think I'd just check 77 and 33.

Yup I'd check 77-22.

Put me in the check the flop camp. You're up against the run-down squad at 4-8 and they've only called one bet at a time which makes it harder to put anyone on a hand. These flops are also one of the greatest smh spots in the 8-16 I play in. If I bet the AK I'm going to get a bunch of callers having little idea of what they've got so I just check it and call one bet.

This IS a great idea for a thread! It'll last forever.

I like these topic specific threads. I'd love to see one for playing draws, or going for screwplays and river Sexy's.

My Devil's Advocate response.

I don't think there are many 3's in limpers range. I agree with Q's and 7's.

I agree we don't take this down on the flop often, but it does happen.

We have decent equity with the back door flush and depending on just how loose these players are, we may actually have an edge.

I don't think we get raised and isolated as much as you think especially at a 4/8 game were players tend to be Mubsy and give the BB credit for a monster.

By betting, we can create implied food equity if the turn is a diamond or J. Somebody with a 7 or smaller pair may be convinced they are beat.

I would rather bet/call than check and probably have to fold if it's two back to us when holding the backdoor.

Betting creates deception. We don't always have a pair when we bet.

These are just some of my thoughts. I can't see how betting here is necessarily bad and it may in fact be better than checking. That being said, I get the arguments for checking as well.

These two bits are at odds with each other. If they don't have many threes in range, then we most surely have <20% equity. If they do have lots of threes in range, then they probably have lots of other junk in range, which will bring up our flop equity with AKdd. However, even against pretty wide ranges with lots of threes and other assorted junk, I found only 19.2% equity on the flop for AKdd.

Don't get me wrong though, it's not that I think betting is unprofitable. I think it is profitable because we're investing <10% of the pot with >10% equity. Hi Doug and Rob. However, I think checking is clearly best because we probably don't have >20% equity vs calling ranges.

Please... no thread specifically on screw plays or sexys! It's so unnecessary. You shouldn't really be looking for these spots as they are rarely the best option/line to take in spots where they are even possible. Too damn much FPS going around imo.

You have to screwplay once in a while to punish the floaters and get an extra bet out of players who will just call down with top pair but will b/c your CR.

You see FPS on the forums because this is were you can throw out ideas of how to play a hand differently without losing any money. Sometimes you stumble across interesting discussions.

And this often does not offset the number of times they just check it back.

Except it often turns into lost money in reality.

This is true, but still does not mean that you should be incorporating a lot of FPS into your game.

I like this suggestion.

My raising range from the BB after 3 limpers and an SB complete is not as wide as Bob's: 88+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo.

I do, however, agree with his betting range of 88-JJ, QJs+, KQo, KQs, AQo, AQs, KK, AA, and QQ (no way do I even consider slowplaying top set with 4 stations in the hand).

So that leaves a range of AKs,AJs-ATs,KJs,AKo,AJo that I would play the same way up to the first flop decision. I would check all of these hands. I think that I would call one bet with all of them as well because they all give me back door straight draws to go with my overcard outs and with stations in the hand we have implied odds. The suited hands might even have backdoor flush draws to go along with backdoor broadway draws. It's also extremely unlikely we'll be raised if we call one bet.

Keep in mind I am not suggesting to incorporate a lot of any of these plays into my game. I'm just saying there will be times when it is correct to make a play and when that happens, I would like to better be able to recognize and seize on that opportunity.

I'm all for that.. just don't happen to think this is one of those spots, but w/e

I also think the times where it is correct to make these plays tend to be few and far between and are often pretty obvious (but not always), so yeah... I get it.

So in the hand in the OP the consensus is check the flop and call one bet.

So let's say by some miracle the flop gets checked through. 5BB in the pot.

Turn is a J putting the fourth suit on the board.

SB checks. Hero ???


I say check again. We rarely have the best hand, we're not going to get a better hand to fold and worse hands are unlikely to bluff into 4 other people.

We've picked up some outs though - we now have 10 outs that are all very likely good so we only need 4 to 1 pot odds which we're easily getting. I can't imagine anyone going for a checkraise in this situation so calling one bet back to us is pretty easy.

If the turn were a 9 instead of a J we'd have 6 outs, so we'd need better than 7 to 1 odds (taking implied odds into account) to call a bet. This one's close but I probably call to see a river.

I'd bet with AJ, KJs, and JTs, but I'd check the rest.

In your experience would most LPs bet the flop with a flopped queen, even a weak flopped queen like Q6s?

They check Qx sometimes, but they have lots of worse hands that they can call with. Also, if they're too scared to bet the flop with Qx, I seriously doubt that they'll raise the turn with it. This makes value betting much safer.

I feel like one of the biggest mistakes most limit players make is c-betting way too much. It's actually pretty rare to see someone raise preflop and then check the flop in the games I play in.

My signature move is to raise preflop and then check-fold the flop. Granted, there are a number of situations where I will peel with whiffed overcards, but a lot of the time I'm just done with it. Obviously, if I have a BDFD, I'm never folding for one bet and when the pot is large, I'm going to hang in there, but one of the problems with the Ace-Face hands is that when you whiff, it's pretty optimistic to count your Ace as three full outs. Board texture also plays a big role. I'm generally never peeling with AK high when the flop comes T87 and I have four interested opponents.

I agree if by interested you mean a raise on the flop. At the other end, folding at 14:1 closing the action would be a mistake.

Signature move? That's a strong statement.
A lot as in more that a majority of the time? If so, you're probably making folding mistakes.

So much this. Also, maybe your A isn't the full 3 outs, but your other overcard is also some outs. So taking a bit off your 6 outs to TP doesn't end up with you folding two overcards to the board very often. Some board textures and especially vs. a raise from a passive player, yes. "Signature move" and "a lot of the time"? For one bet? Hard to agree this could be right.

Let me ask another related question:

Suppose you're at the type of table where 4 to 6 people are seeing every flop and you have a read on a specific villain that if he raises pre and checks the flop he has two big cards and whiffed but if he bets he has an overpair, top pair or a very strong draw.

How could one exploit that villain's predictable tendency?

And to what extent are our efforts to exploit said villain hindered by the presence of the other 1, 2, or 3 villains in the hand?