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Old 02-14-2020, 11:08 PM   #2401
mongidig
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
Seems close. Iíd probably call. Depends on how much Iíve had to drink
Let's Say six beers and a shot!
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Old 02-14-2020, 11:11 PM   #2402
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Let's Say six beers and a shot!

I donít drink beer, so letís say 3 shots and a White Claw.
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Old 02-18-2020, 11:38 AM   #2403
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Bad lag opens Mp, two players call in late position, decent lag three bets sb, I have T8o in big blind
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Old 02-18-2020, 11:47 AM   #2404
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

20/40 9 handed. Lots of preflop cold calling. typically at least 5 people seeing a flop. Many times is 7 or more even with a pre flop raise. I typically muck hands like small pocket pairs and small Ace suited's from UTG. Should I be playing these in a game where there will be lots of players in pre flop, there will probably be a raise pre most of the time but not a ton of 3 bets.

Would you eliminate normal raising hands from your UTG range in such a game? I see a lot of decent to good players open KJo or ATo for example. I'd think these would be bad in this game.

Assume your are only drinking a nice cold soda pop or milk.
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Old 02-18-2020, 11:52 AM   #2405
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
Bad lag opens Mp, two players call in late position, decent lag three bets sb, I have T8o in big blind
easy fold for me. T8s is closer. I think given the possibility of it getting capped and being sandwiched between two lags would make this a fold as well. Add a few more players and I would make the call.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:07 PM   #2406
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I'd fold the T8o from NFS's hand. With regard to mongidig's question, I think in the type of game you are describing it makes sense to have an open limp range in EP comprising hands that you cannot profitably open (especially considering your very low chance of ever taking it down pre in a game like this), but which do well in multiway pots. The hands you propose (small pairs, the worst suited aces) fit this bill, as do the smaller suited connectors (54s+), suited broadways you wouldn't otherwise raise, and some big offsuit hands you wouldn't otherwise raise, including the AT and KJ you identify.
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Old 02-18-2020, 09:14 PM   #2407
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
20/40 9 handed. Lots of preflop cold calling. typically at least 5 people seeing a flop. Many times is 7 or more even with a pre flop raise. I typically muck hands like small pocket pairs and small Ace suited's from UTG. Should I be playing these in a game where there will be lots of players in pre flop, there will probably be a raise pre most of the time but not a ton of 3 bets.

Would you eliminate normal raising hands from your UTG range in such a game? I see a lot of decent to good players open KJo or ATo for example. I'd think these would be bad in this game.

Assume your are only drinking a nice cold soda pop or milk.
raise ATo. i think ATo and AJo stuff is fine even in crazy games. TPGK is a strong hand even with lots of opponents. you'll usually lose but when you win you win big. KJo though id muck because you're more likely to hit middle pair and be sucked into calling when youre OOP and getting sandwiched, or being forced to fold your equity (which also sucks).

Id play any suited ace, raising like A8s+ from UTG. Axs is a monster hand in these games because of the nut flush. you could be dominated but who cares its not like your gonna go crazy with TPNK into 7 people.

i think small pp's kinda suck though from EP even in these games so id muck 22-66. i have no stats to back that up but from EP its just hard to make much even when you hit a set. plus ive lost more pots with small sets that get flushed/straighted on the turn/river in crazy games than i can count.

i wouldnt play small sc's from EP in these games because of your likelihood of getting sandwiched where you have to pay too many bets with weak draws but are committed due to pot odds.

Last edited by NittyOldMan1; 02-18-2020 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 02-18-2020, 09:17 PM   #2408
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by hardinthepaint View Post
I'd fold the T8o from NFS's hand. With regard to mongidig's question, I think in the type of game you are describing it makes sense to have an open limp range in EP comprising hands that you cannot profitably open (especially considering your very low chance of ever taking it down pre in a game like this), but which do well in multiway pots. The hands you propose (small pairs, the worst suited aces) fit this bill, as do the smaller suited connectors (54s+), suited broadways you wouldn't otherwise raise, and some big offsuit hands you wouldn't otherwise raise, including the AT and KJ you identify.
I agree, but tend to find this hard to do and in practice given the prevalence of raises behind. I play in a game where QJ never gets folded and will be opened often. So A4s is the nuts but hard to realize out of position.
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Old 02-19-2020, 10:57 AM   #2409
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
I agree, but tend to find this hard to do and in practice given the prevalence of raises behind. I play in a game where QJ never gets folded and will be opened often. So A4s is the nuts but hard to realize out of position.
I am not so concerned about raises behind. We are already accounting for the fact that the pot may go off for multiple bets before we put a single bet in. Our assumption is that these hands are still going to have an equity advantage when it goes off multiway for multiple bets.

The biggest concern being OOP with these hands is equity realization. But generally games like this do not involve postflop spots that are all that difficult. It is rare to see it get three-bet post. When it does get jammed, it is usually by pretty predictable ranges.

If the game is very aggressive post-flop or if a good portion of the time the preflop action ends up coming back to you for 3 bets like 3 ways, then I'd eliminate the weakest limping hands or revert to a default never limp strategy.
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:34 PM   #2410
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
Bad lag opens Mp, two players call in late position, decent lag three bets sb, I have T8o in big blind

Fold. Offsuit trash has a harder time realizing equity.
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:48 PM   #2411
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
20/40 9 handed. Lots of preflop cold calling. typically at least 5 people seeing a flop. Many times is 7 or more even with a pre flop raise. I typically muck hands like small pocket pairs and small Ace suited's from UTG. Should I be playing these in a game where there will be lots of players in pre flop, there will probably be a raise pre most of the time but not a ton of 3 bets.

Would you eliminate normal raising hands from your UTG range in such a game? I see a lot of decent to good players open KJo or ATo for example. I'd think these would be bad in this game.

Assume your are only drinking a nice cold soda pop or milk.

I donít open KJo or ATo UTG in most circumstances.

In the game you describe, I think itís ok to open limp UTG with some hands that you would otherwise fold (small pairs, weak suited Aís, suited connectors lower than an 8). I would also limp/3bet a few hands as well because itís just so fun (56s comes to mind). Only from UTG. If Iím UTG1 or later, I play raise or fold.

If youíre asking what hands to add to your UTG raising range based on game conditions, but are unwilling to open limp, then I would advocate for hands that play well multi-way. KJo and ATo are NOT those hands. Suited Aís and suited connectors are where I would start. But like I said, Iím ok with open limping them if the game conditions are right.

I donít drink soda pop or milk, so this advice is operating under the assumption that Iím only drinking water.
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Old 02-19-2020, 10:46 PM   #2412
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
Fold. Offsuit trash has a harder time realizing equity.
So just eliminate my favorite hand group!!

I donít open kJ or at either, but certainly kq and aj
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Old 02-19-2020, 10:47 PM   #2413
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
So just eliminate my favorite hand group!!



I donít open kJ or at either, but certainly kq and aj


Yep.

Me too.
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Old 02-28-2020, 10:17 AM   #2414
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

TAG in CO opens, Loose passive in SB calls....Are you calling A2o or A3o in the BB? Do you need a bigger kicker?
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Old 02-28-2020, 10:27 AM   #2415
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
TAG in CO opens, Loose passive in SB calls....Are you calling A2o or A3o in the BB? Do you need a bigger kicker?
90% of time yes.

10% of the time no.

Did 0 math or range analysis. Just my experience if I'm running bad I tend to fold occasionally.

I play bad though and probably should be fold higher % based on Reverse Implied Odds?
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Old 02-28-2020, 01:28 PM   #2416
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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TAG in CO opens, Loose passive in SB calls....Are you calling A2o or A3o in the BB? Do you need a bigger kicker?

Call both.
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Old 03-03-2020, 09:37 PM   #2417
mongidig
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

This is a what would you do question.

Lets say you are in seat 2 and seat 3 gets up. You notice a huge lag/maniac coming into the game so you slide over to seat 3. Unfortunately seat 4 decides to take seat 2 putting the maniac in seat 4 to your left. this is not a player you want on your left. He is three betting and capping most of time and calling the rest pre flop. You can no longer iso raise. You look around and realize that no one will be leaving any time soon so you are stuck with this guy to the left. The game is ok but not great as it is. It would be very profitable with this guy to the right. He is agro on the flop and then plays more reasonably on the turn and river but still can overplay hands.

How much tighter do you need to play now? One PIP higher? Two PIPs?

Lets say it is folded to you in the CO...How are you adjusting your range here? I'd think we would trim away some of the suited connectors and weaker broadways. The blinds btw are somewhat loose so I wouldn't expect to be isolated just against the button all the time.

Do you consider just calling it a day and leaving? In this particular case I had played 4 hours of about 6 I was planning. I foresee a lot of variance in this situation.

I tried to make it look like I didn't see who was coming into the new seat. Would taking seat 4 have been a douche move or prudent. I'm pretty sure the guy would have figured out what I was doing.

Just curious about how you handle these spots.

Thanks!
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Old 03-03-2020, 09:45 PM   #2418
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
Call both.
I call both too. I was playing around with some random flops and realized how many more decent situations to continue with there were with A6+

If the TAG had raised from an earlier position like the HJ or LJ would you still play these.

Thanks!
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Old 03-04-2020, 06:53 AM   #2419
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

@mongidig I would have moved and said ď**** that, I donít want you on my left.Ē
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Old 03-04-2020, 07:46 PM   #2420
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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I call both too. I was playing around with some random flops and realized how many more decent situations to continue with there were with A6+



If the TAG had raised from an earlier position like the HJ or LJ would you still play these.



Thanks!

If the TAG opened from EP, I may be more inclined to fold, yes.
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Old 03-05-2020, 02:02 PM   #2421
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
This is a what would you do question.

Lets say you are in seat 2 and seat 3 gets up. You notice a huge lag/maniac coming into the game so you slide over to seat 3. Unfortunately seat 4 decides to take seat 2 putting the maniac in seat 4 to your left. this is not a player you want on your left. He is three betting and capping most of time and calling the rest pre flop. You can no longer iso raise. You look around and realize that no one will be leaving any time soon so you are stuck with this guy to the left. The game is ok but not great as it is. It would be very profitable with this guy to the right. He is agro on the flop and then plays more reasonably on the turn and river but still can overplay hands.

How much tighter do you need to play now? One PIP higher? Two PIPs?

Lets say it is folded to you in the CO...How are you adjusting your range here? I'd think we would trim away some of the suited connectors and weaker broadways. The blinds btw are somewhat loose so I wouldn't expect to be isolated just against the button all the time.

Do you consider just calling it a day and leaving? In this particular case I had played 4 hours of about 6 I was planning. I foresee a lot of variance in this situation.

I tried to make it look like I didn't see who was coming into the new seat. Would taking seat 4 have been a douche move or prudent. I'm pretty sure the guy would have figured out what I was doing.

Just curious about how you handle these spots.

Thanks!


Attempting to maximize your hourly by game and seat selecting is a practice of which I am not a proponent.

Seeking to avoid tough situations instead of seeking to understand how to combat tough situations will only stunt your growth as a player. In turn, your hourly, in the long run, will be capped - as the game gets tougher over time, there are fewer and fewer good opportunities to seat and game select.

If you never avoid tough spots and spend the time to figure out the proper adjustments, youíll be able to play in any seat and any game and still be profitable in the long run.

I think youíre on the right track with how to adjust to having this player on your right. Thinking about how this player changes the dynamic of the game and adjusting your pre flop range accordingly is an important first step. Well done. Keep thinking about what kind of spots youíll be in post flop and continue to adjust both your pre flop range and post flop play.
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Old 03-05-2020, 03:05 PM   #2422
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Do you consider just calling it a day and leaving? In this particular case I had played 4 hours of about 6 I was planning. I foresee a lot of variance in this situation.
I agree with Rodeo that jockeying for position at the table is generally bad for the game. A ton of people in my game try to do it anyway. I will admit I take a certain pleasure from seeing what happened to you happen to others.

That said, unless you are proactively adjusting poorly, the presence of a maniac should increase your win rate regardless of what seat you sit in. True, the seats to the left of the maniac will benefit the most, but that doesn't mean it comes at your expense. Also, in my experience the presence of a maniac often leads to a table dynamic that is good for anyone adjusting reasonably well.

Yes, variance will be higher, but is there a good reason why you are trying to avoid variance? Seems your poker or life roll should allow you to invite good, high variance games.
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Old 03-05-2020, 04:52 PM   #2423
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
Attempting to maximize your hourly by game and seat selecting is a practice of which I am not a proponent.

Seeking to avoid tough situations instead of seeking to understand how to combat tough situations will only stunt your growth as a player. In turn, your hourly, in the long run, will be capped - as the game gets tougher over time, there are fewer and fewer good opportunities to seat and game select.

If you never avoid tough spots and spend the time to figure out the proper adjustments, youíll be able to play in any seat and any game and still be profitable in the long run.

I think youíre on the right track with how to adjust to having this player on your right. Thinking about how this player changes the dynamic of the game and adjusting your pre flop range accordingly is an important first step. Well done. Keep thinking about what kind of spots youíll be in post flop and continue to adjust both your pre flop range and post flop play.

*having this player on your left
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:36 AM   #2424
mongidig
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
Attempting to maximize your hourly by game and seat selecting is a practice of which I am not a proponent.

Seeking to avoid tough situations instead of seeking to understand how to combat tough situations will only stunt your growth as a player. In turn, your hourly, in the long run, will be capped - as the game gets tougher over time, there are fewer and fewer good opportunities to seat and game select.

If you never avoid tough spots and spend the time to figure out the proper adjustments, youíll be able to play in any seat and any game and still be profitable in the long run.

I think youíre on the right track with how to adjust to having this player on your right. Thinking about how this player changes the dynamic of the game and adjusting your pre flop range accordingly is an important first step. Well done. Keep thinking about what kind of spots youíll be in post flop and continue to adjust both your pre flop range and post flop play.
I agree!

I have run horribly to start the year after having my best year ever last year. I'm starting to question my decision making. I don't play a ton of hours so my swings can extend weeks or months like this one. I just want to make sure that I am not slipping into some bad habits.

Are you saying that you are not a proponent of changing seats in general to get to the left of a player like this or just over doing it? I feel like if you have the chance to move to the nut seat, especially if it significantly upgrades your current situation you should do it. I also think there are times where it might be a significant mistake not to move. For instance, if you are in a game where everybody is playing tight and now this guy comes in. The profit from being able to isolate this guy could be massive. There are many times when my gut say's I should take that seat, but I don't because I'm lazy. I feel like I end up regretting it a very high percentage of the time.

I appreciate your feedback!
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Old 03-06-2020, 11:48 AM   #2425
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by LifeRebooted View Post
I agree with Rodeo that jockeying for position at the table is generally bad for the game. A ton of people in my game try to do it anyway. I will admit I take a certain pleasure from seeing what happened to you happen to others.

That said, unless you are proactively adjusting poorly, the presence of a maniac should increase your win rate regardless of what seat you sit in. True, the seats to the left of the maniac will benefit the most, but that doesn't mean it comes at your expense. Also, in my experience the presence of a maniac often leads to a table dynamic that is good for anyone adjusting reasonably well.

Yes, variance will be higher, but is there a good reason why you are trying to avoid variance? Seems your poker or life roll should allow you to invite good, high variance games.
I take pleasure in seeing that as well. Most of the time when I change seats it is to get out of the one or nine seat or to get a corner seat. I have moved three times this year in extreme cases where a super lag was to my left. All three times I ended up losing a ton and the person who took my seat won a ton. I'm running seat change bad as well. I hope this brings you some joy this morning

I'm not trying to avoid variance, I'm just trying to do the right thing.

I appreciate the advice.
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