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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 04-14-2019, 10:30 AM   #2201
rodeo
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I agree!

In case it wasn’t clear in my post, I think folding 79o is best.
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Old 04-14-2019, 01:36 PM   #2202
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Table is a bloodmobile, full of donors. I'm in SB, BB appears to be good TAG. UTG+1 limps with any two, MP overlimps with maybe 50% and will raise flop with middle pair no kicker, CO overlimps with any two and can barely raise the nuts on the river. All these players take a hand with any piece of the board to the river.

In SB I get AQo. Time to just buckle in and raise yes.

HPFAP says don't raise this even if you're on button. I feel this may be a situation where the book is dated but I wanted to make sure.

Last edited by DrHoldemPhD; 04-14-2019 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Fixing autocorrect
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:01 PM   #2203
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Your equity edge should be large, and you can raise wide in this spot for value. Position is great, but this table isn't going to punish you for being OOP. You're going to have to make the best hand and show it. TPTK+ is going to be the best hand a lot.



Did HPFAP mention this vs a bunch of limps or not 3 bet vs a tight EP open? It seems terrible to face 3 limpers and not raise this BTN or SB.
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:05 PM   #2204
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I'll reread it. It was in the loose games section after the "concept from razz" about keeping pot small to make opponents chasing a bigger mistake. Seems very outdated...
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:07 PM   #2205
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Should raise AQo.

Definitely shouldn’t be raising wide because, as DougL said, you’re going to have to make the best hand and have it hold up. I’d raise AQo+, ATs+, any suited broadway, TT+, and a couple fun suited hands.
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Old 04-14-2019, 03:48 PM   #2206
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Most of my experience is online shorthanded, adjusting to super loose live is a challenge. Multiple times I was put in a spot like this. Hand that's definitely got a significant equity edge on the field like AJo+. I raise it up pre-flop, flop air and then decide a) whether to donk check flop which "feels" wrong but 4 ways with calling stations seems like right move and then b) whether to still peel with over cards getting 11 or 13-1 and how my reverse implied odds are because high card rag two pair are these people's bread and butter.
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Old 04-14-2019, 04:43 PM   #2207
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Should raise AQo.

Definitely shouldn’t be raising wide because, as DougL said, you’re going to have to make the best hand and have it hold up. I’d raise AQo+, ATs+, any suited broadway, TT+, and a couple fun suited hands.
+1 and I’m a tinge widere
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Old 04-14-2019, 05:02 PM   #2208
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Should raise AQo.

Definitely shouldn’t be raising wide because, as DougL said, you’re going to have to make the best hand and have it hold up. I’d raise AQo+, ATs+, any suited broadway, TT+, and a couple fun suited hands.
It appears I'm possibly raising too much in this spot. I would raise ATo+ A8s+ 88+ although I'm not raising the fun suited hands so much.
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Old 04-14-2019, 05:09 PM   #2209
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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It appears I'm possibly raising too much in this spot. I would raise ATo+ A8s+ 88+ although I'm not raising the fun suited hands so much.
I'd definitely pump up suited broadways. I went down to AJo in this SB situation last night but just completed ATo. JTs and T9s I'd be tempted to pump it up but 98s is marginal to me.
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Old 04-14-2019, 05:16 PM   #2210
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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It appears I'm possibly raising too much in this spot. I would raise ATo+ A8s+ 88+ although I'm not raising the fun suited hands so much.


Yeah, man. Way too much. I used to raise down to 77, but then realized that was bad. 99 are close. TT must raise. 88 not so much. ATo is trash. Most TAGs over value offsuit hands. They’re no good. T9s is probably the only fun suited hand I’d raise.
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Old 04-14-2019, 07:47 PM   #2211
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
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Your equity edge should be large, and you can raise wide in this spot for value. Position is great, but this table isn't going to punish you for being OOP. You're going to have to make the best hand and show it. TPTK+ is going to be the best hand a lot.



Did HPFAP mention this vs a bunch of limps or not 3 bet vs a tight EP open? It seems terrible to face 3 limpers and not raise this BTN or SB.
p. 160 HPFAP says if players are coming in with almost anything push the huge equity edge, but if just a little too loose then don't make the pot big enough to justify their tendencies... But p.161 then says with 4 limpers and you on the button you should probably not raise it.

Ok, I'll admit that my described situation is closer to the former case to the latter, but I still think the latter you ought to bump it up.

Last edited by DrHoldemPhD; 04-14-2019 at 07:49 PM. Reason: Finishing thought
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Old 04-15-2019, 09:32 AM   #2212
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Yeah, man. Way too much. I used to raise down to 77, but then realized that was bad. 99 are close. TT must raise. 88 not so much. ATo is trash. Most TAGs over value offsuit hands. They’re no good. T9s is probably the only fun suited hand I’d raise.
Much of my poker career I did not raise hands like ATo in situations like this. Then I started playing like most TAGs and started raising these hands. It would feel weird not to raise 99's(I will look into this more) but I totally get not raising ATo. I've always intuitively felt it wasn't great.
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Old 04-15-2019, 09:38 AM   #2213
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHoldemPhD View Post
p. 160 HPFAP says if players are coming in with almost anything push the huge equity edge, but if just a little too loose then don't make the pot big enough to justify their tendencies... But p.161 then says with 4 limpers and you on the button you should probably not raise it.

Ok, I'll admit that my described situation is closer to the former case to the latter, but I still think the latter you ought to bump it up.
A hand like AQo is too strong not to push your equity edge. HFAP was a great book when it came out but the game has changed so much since then that most of it does not apply to current game conditions. I'm guessing that limping ranges back then where much tighter than today.
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:03 AM   #2214
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I like 99 too. But raising in this situation feels like banging your head against a wall so I understand why it should be with monsters that are easy to play multiway only.
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:55 AM   #2215
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

A long time ago (2011) I did some equity calculations that showed that 77 had an equity advantage vs. the field after a bunch of limpers. At the time, the thinking was that we should push the thinnest edges to the maximum pre flop and in the long run, we’d be making money. However, the problem with that line of thought and my equity calculations, (which only show hot/cold equity), is that’s not the whole story. Some of those hands that have a pre flop equity advantage don’t get to realize it. You raise pre flop, the flop comes 3 cards and you end up having to x/f. Position is a factor as well. From the SB we have a discount, but that doesn’t outweigh the fact that we’ll have absolute worst position post flop and playing from OOP in a bloated pot is no fun.
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Old Yesterday, 03:03 PM   #2216
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Great thread. I'm so damn rusty and trying to get back on track. Playing micros and using my stox hand ranges as training wheels. Are we saying those ranges are too narrow or too wide for today's games?

Also, I saw the cbet comment and am almost positive that I am cbetting far too much. What's the present thought process? Anywhere you can recommend that I go to study?

I'm so damned bored playing other games. LHE is my favorite game and I am resigned to just dealing with less game selection to play a game I actually enjoy.
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Old Yesterday, 05:08 PM   #2217
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Great thread. I'm so damn rusty and trying to get back on track. Playing micros and using my stox hand ranges as training wheels. Are we saying those ranges are too narrow or too wide for today's games?

Also, I saw the cbet comment and am almost positive that I am cbetting far too much. What's the present thought process? Anywhere you can recommend that I go to study?

I'm so damned bored playing other games. LHE is my favorite game and I am resigned to just dealing with less game selection to play a game I actually enjoy.
I'm in exactly the same place as you. Just a few weeks ago I came back in after 7 years off.

I think stox is too narrow when first in in position. However, I think the game situation is really important. If you're in a ring if abc tags and one fish it's time to LAGTAG it up. If the game is super loose and everyone is taking most hands to turn and river limping range widens and raising range widens in position with multiway monsters and tightens out of position with top pair type hands (KJo/ATo).

Flop check back, mongi and I are trying to get a whole thread going on it. In my mind the point of cutting back on cbet is to avoid getting check-raised lightly. I've recently thought about an old Heisenberg post about check raising light when defending your blind because steal + cbet range was so wide with most TAGs. Them the TAG is going to fold too often so aggressively check raising is winning. Before I stopped stopped playing 2/4 on Stars I was killing TAGs by check raising flops almost 100% against button and co steals.

As EP or MP and HJ raiser I'm more lost on checking back though because our range is narrower.
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Old Yesterday, 05:29 PM   #2218
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

In fact I remember playing 20/40 in the bike just before quitting and a twoer by the name of dosequis happened to be playing on my right. Because I knew he was a wide steal and 95%+ cbet acolyte, I check raised and turn barreled with absolute air and because it was late in the session I showed when he folded. Good times.
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Old Yesterday, 06:40 PM   #2219
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHoldemPhD View Post
I'm in exactly the same place as you. Just a few weeks ago I came back in after 7 years off.



I think stox is too narrow when first in in position. However, I think the game situation is really important. If you're in a ring if abc tags and one fish it's time to LAGTAG it up. If the game is super loose and everyone is taking most hands to turn and river limping range widens and raising range widens in position with multiway monsters and tightens out of position with top pair type hands (KJo/ATo).



Flop check back, mongi and I are trying to get a whole thread going on it. In my mind the point of cutting back on cbet is to avoid getting check-raised lightly. I've recently thought about an old Heisenberg post about check raising light when defending your blind because steal + cbet range was so wide with most TAGs. Them the TAG is going to fold too often so aggressively check raising is winning. Before I stopped stopped playing 2/4 on Stars I was killing TAGs by check raising flops almost 100% against button and co steals.



As EP or MP and HJ raiser I'm more lost on checking back though because our range is narrower.
Yes. I think where Stox is too wide is with some of the weaker hands from early position. I can probably benefit from tightening up a bit OOP and widening IP.

The games so far seem to be very showdown bound and more passive than I remember. I'm struggling to adjust but am playing down while I sort it out.
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Old Yesterday, 07:33 PM   #2220
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Just to be clear, I don't think stox is too wide oop all else equal. I think it's too wide for open raising oop in loose games. I'm playing live right now so that's what I've just been thinking about.

What site and stakes are you playing on? Since pokerstars and full tilt got raided by the Feds I've been off internet

Passive and showdown bound sounds like fish. Buy real estate in value town.
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Old Today, 01:23 AM   #2221
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Post Stox’s ranges. I’m interested to see what they are.
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Old Today, 07:00 AM   #2222
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

It's been years but I built the following and have it labeled as Stox 6 Max on one of my hand range files. I do not recall where I pulled it from. This is just the open raising range, there are ranges for other spots like facing a raise, raise plus 1 cc etc. When I was playing regularly I would only look at it if I faced a tough decision, but for now I've been using it as a guide due to my long layoff.

Button: 22+
A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+ 75s+, 65s
A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J8o+, T8o+, 97o

CO: 22+
A2s+, K5s+, Q9s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s+,76s
A2o+,K8o+,QTo+JTo+,

HJ: 44+
A4s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s+, 87S
A7o+, KTo+, QJo+

UTG: 55+
A7s+, K9s+, QTs+ ,J9s+, T9S, 98S
A9o+,KJo+

SB: 22+
A2s+,K4s+,Q5s+,J6s+,T6s+,96s+,85s+75s, 65s,
A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+ J8o+, T7o+, 97o, 86o, 75o
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Old Today, 07:21 AM   #2223
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHoldemPhD View Post
Just to be clear, I don't think stox is too wide oop all else equal. I think it's too wide for open raising oop in loose games. I'm playing live right now so that's what I've just been thinking about.

What site and stakes are you playing on? Since pokerstars and full tilt got raided by the Feds I've been off internet

Passive and showdown bound sounds like fish. Buy real estate in value town.
ACR and Ignition.

Definitely trying to value bet a ton but keep running into made hands that are being played super passively to showdown.
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Old Today, 10:35 AM   #2224
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Originally Posted by antneye View Post
It's been years but I built the following and have it labeled as Stox 6 Max on one of my hand range files. I do not recall where I pulled it from. This is just the open raising range, there are ranges for other spots like facing a raise, raise plus 1 cc etc. When I was playing regularly I would only look at it if I faced a tough decision, but for now I've been using it as a guide due to my long layoff.

Button: 22+
A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+ 75s+, 65s
A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J8o+, T8o+, 97o

CO: 22+
A2s+, K5s+, Q9s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s+,76s
A2o+,K8o+,QTo+JTo+,

HJ: 44+
A4s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s+, 87S
A7o+, KTo+, QJo+

UTG: 55+
A7s+, K9s+, QTs+ ,J9s+, T9S, 98S
A9o+,KJo+

SB: 22+
A2s+,K4s+,Q5s+,J6s+,T6s+,96s+,85s+75s, 65s,
A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+ J8o+, T7o+, 97o, 86o, 75o


Overall, these ranges are close. They tend to over value high card offsuit hands (typical TAG mistake) and under value suited hands.

A2o and K8o are folds from CO. A lot of good players are even folding A2o from BTN. I raise it from BTN.

My BTN range is a pip tighter on some of the offsuit hands and a few pips looser on some of the suited hands.
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Old Today, 10:48 AM   #2225
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

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Overall, these ranges are close. They tend to over value high card offsuit hands (typical TAG mistake) and under value suited hands.

A2o and K8o are folds from CO. A lot of good players are even folding A2o from BTN. I raise it from BTN.

My BTN range is a pip tighter on some of the offsuit hands and a few pips looser on some of the suited hands.
Thanks, that was the conclusion I was starting to arrive at myself. I may tweak it some as I get more hands under my belt. I also need to remember to adjust it to different villains.

I'm having the most fun I've had in years playing cards trying to rediscover my limit game. Last night's session felt good to me. More natural in terms of my instincts at the table even though I spewed horribly with the second nuts against a fish in one hand Pre flop check up posts.
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