I shouldn't have used the wording "open for debate". I was just looking for clarification or other thoughts.

Thanks for your responses!

Thanks!

Would you defend 79o or 68o? Or I suppose the better question would be how low do you go with your offsuit gap hands?

20/40 9 handed time game.

It's folded to me in CO. The button is tight and straightforward. The blinds are both loose bad players.

What do you do with 22-44's, A2o-A4o, K8o, Q9o?

I would ditch them all? Seems like against loose bad players you are incentivized to tighten up, especially since you have a tight player to your left that might pick up on your shenanigans.

22-44's seem close. I would probably open 44's.

This. Raise 44, fold the rest.

If you want to add some hands to your range because you effectively have the BTN and you want to play hands with the blinds, start by adding suited hands. Off suit hands are trash, especially in multi-way pots.

Sorry for this getting long but I think reads are important for this. And yes, I'd change seats if I could but overall table is great.

8/16 9-handed. Regularly 4+ players to the flop.
I'm in early MP with 87. UTG and UTG+1 fold, so I'd be opening the action.

My immediate left is a loose-passive who is mad at me for sucking out in a big pot and has become capable of even cold-calling Krag offsuit when I open raise. Seems to want to get in any hand I'm in now, can take stabs at dry flops when in position but not capable of late street bluffs or thin value bets. Also calling to the river to draw every time against me.

After that person is a nitty TAG, then next player who limps a lot pre-flop and will spew chips post-flop holding little to nothing, player after that often overlimps with trash. The small blind is a calling station who can't even raise with a monster on the river and big blind that seems straight-forward TAG (he doesn't show down enough heads up post-flop, but not a relevant read here). Other than the big blind I don't think anyone left in hand would raise pre-flop without TT+ and AJo/s+.

Open limp 87s here? And, if you like open-limping with marginal stuff here how low do you go?

No. I’d never open limp from MP in the situation you describe or in any other situation. With 78s in this spot, I’d raise it.

In the right games open limping UTG and maybe UTG1 (if the players next in are loose and passive) is fine. But once it’s already been folded to you in MP, it’s much less likely the pot will go off multi-way.

Against these passive players I would raise the 87s

To be precise I'm at UTG+2, am I misunderstanding what early MP means?

And you'd raise 87s for value? I thought with suited connectors I want to get in cheap with higher implied odds...

At a 9 handed table I look at it like,

UTG, UTG1, UTG2, MP, HJ, CO, BTN, SB, BB

UTG2 is too late to open limp under any circumstances imo.

My default when it’s folded to me, is to raise 78s from MP and later. I’d fold it from UTG2 as a default. My previous response was before you edited your post.

I'd fold. I either want to go MW preferably in position or have a chance to take it down UIP at some point. I think your position is a little too early and having good position helps with suited connectors. It sounds like you are gonna be chased down in this spot too often. Basically, your gonna have to make a hand. I also don't limp anything in this scenaro.

I need to loosen up my open-raise range.

Before taking a long break from poker until now I was beating 2/4 6-max on stars in 2011 playing relatively LAGTAG for those days. I distinctly remember open raising a wider range than WITHG's pre-flop chart. I just looked at their chart and 87s is just outside their open raise for MP... meaning I likely used to open raise 87s there too.

I need to write out a pre-flop chart memorize it if I'm going to be playing again.

I can't remember the last time a TAG 3 bet me IP in a BVB situation. Do you guy's flat in the BB to a SB raise? I 3 bet a bunch of hands like J6s, 34s etc from the BB. I flat hands like KTo, or A8o most of the time. I like having showdownable hands in my flat range especially ones that aren't super strong.

I feel like if I had somebody who was 3 betting me a ton from the BB I would have to tighten up. When I play against someone who just flats I can still fearlessly play a wide range.

There are obviously good times to flat but I think people have taken it too far in some spots.

BTW...This could just be a product of a small sample size since the games I play in are usually very good so BVB situations don't come up often.

Flatting 100% from BB vs. a SB open is exploitable. I have a range of hands that I 3 bet. J6s is not in it.

I haven't been in BVB in ages but my 3-bet range against a TAG who likes to steal would probably be 77+, A8s+, A9o+, K9s+, KTo+, QJs, JTs. My only concern is whether that's too tight, but unlike other pf 3! situations there's no dead blind money sweetening the pot. Typically if you are opening wide on my right I will 3 you wide.

I like to 3 bet the top of my range and some hands from the lower part of my range. I tend to just call with the middle hands but I don't mind a raise. I would just call hands like KTo or A9o. Depending on how showdown bound or how combative the SB is I may 3 bet as low as 34s. If the player is foldy post flop I will throw in hands like J6s or T7s since I can take it down on boards that miss both of us. I would 3 bet all pairs and more suited hands.

I may call a lot more with my Ace high and K high hands against extremely bluffy types.

I'm still working on BVB play so I am open for critique or suggestions.

We want to have both value and bluffs in our 3 bet range. Since LHE is a showdown game, I like my bluffs to have equity so I don’t include hands that are pure bluffs or don’t play well post flop.

The simplest way to think about it is to use the offsuit hands for value and the suited hands for bluffs and board coverage.

You have hands in your range that just call that I 3 bet and hands that 3 bet that I just call.

Thanks!

If I'm playing against a bluffy type I like just calling the middle K high and A high hands. If the player is opening a ton and maybe 100% and plays poorly post flop I like 3 betting the KTo or A9o and worse. If they are uncomfortable playing BVB but still open wide I like 3 betting a ton of hands. This is where a hand like T7s or J6s comes in.

Most players don't have a capping range so I can get away with 3 betting more. Assuming they are non combative post flop I can take it down more on flops that miss both of us. J6s is a hand that is an easy defend but doesn't play great post flop.

I like the idea of bloating pots in position against inferior opponents especially if they are not going to adjust.

BVB situations don't come up often in my games so much of what I do is purely exploitative.

I appreciate any critique of my thinking here.

Thanks!

I think if your pre flop range is well thought out and constructed in a balanced fashion, you won’t need to make many adjustments to it in order to exploit your opponents. It should already be set up to have enough bluff catchers and value and everything in between.

We don’t need a player to be opening even close to 100% for A9o and KTo to be 3 bets for value. Think about when you’re the BTN and the CO opens, do you 3 bet those hands? My default in that spot is to 3 bet ATo and KTo. That’s vs. a 30-35% open range. A good range for the SB to open is at minimum double that percentage, which makes A9o and KTo fist pump 3 bets. We won’t have dead money from the blinds, but we’re up against a super wide range with an equity advantage and we can guarantee we’ll have absolute position.

If a player is super fit or fold post flop but will still open wide from SB, then by all means go ahead and 3 bet the J6s and T7s. In my experience, that’s not a situation that comes up often. My default vs. anyone is to 3 bet J8s and T8s and I think that’s enough. I’ve yet to encounter an opponent that will both open wide and then play fit or fold post flop. I feel like the fit or fold kind of opponents will generally open complete a lot. In that case, I will raise very wide and cbet the flop 100%.

Where do you play that it’s a 20/40 time game? The only 20 that’s time I know of is Bellagio.

In regards to hands like A9o or KTo. I am just saying that as their range gets wider I am more likely to just play straightforward and 3 bet and get value. I agree regarding balance.

I quite often run into very laggy players who do give up easily post flop on certain boards textures. They probably see me as nittier than I am. They are the bad lags who like to play a lot of hands but are not combative post flop.

Most of the hands that I ask about were played a while ago when I was playing more. I have played in Vegas and some at Talking Stick in Scottsdale when I am in town regarding time games. I'm hoping to start playing a ton this summer.

Very loose HJ limps. He donks a ton of flops, The Tag CO raises, I am next to act on the button. The blinds are pretty loose.

How low are you calling with pairs, suited connectors, Axs hands?

I'd probably 3 bet 88's+, down to 66's if the blinds were tight. I would probably 3 bet JTs+ and A8s+.....Just throwing it out there.

The fact that the HJ donks a lot can be good and bad. It's obviously bad on board textures that miss us. It can be good in that it puts the CO into some tough spots.

I think my 3 bet range is much wider than my cold call range here. I like having the better implied odds for small pocket pairs and suited connectors by seeing flop cheap getting 4/5:1 rather than for two small bets. I'm more willing to pay two of I'm getting 7:1ish. You have good relative position and the best absolute position which is a big plus.

Flop donking and looseness is a good read but in this decision I want to know aggressiveness. If blinds are loose aggressive and if limper has much of a limp reraise range I will not dig deep for cold calls because I'd hate paying 3 bets with them getting only 4 or 5 to 1.

I default raise/fold in that spot. Lots of flop donking is helpful but I'd characterize tags as doing a decent job of denying us equity and we'll face two bets a lot. When that guy doesn't donk, we're often in bad relative position to a Tag cbet with a weak range.

Typically to the right of likely bettor is best relative position, right? Here acting right after CO is good as you can protect your hand if you flop something vulnerable but bad if you want to close action on flop to draw.

Overall I agree on raise/fold. For example, one of the hands next on the list is T9s. That's a strong hand I'd feel more inclined to 3-bet than cold call.

If the blinds were tight I would get on board 3 betting pre here. The blinds in this example are loose. I would only 3 bet hands I thought had value. I would 3 bet QJs even if I thought it was possible the blinds would call. I would just call 89s-JTs in this scenario. Calling 67s isn't horrible but it's starting to become less likely we will be able to extract big money when we hit a hand. With 67s we would need to be up against a big pair usually to get paid off. 89s-JTs intersect with more hands that may get us paid off when not against the big pair.

I think 9Ts is a bit optimistic to be 3 betting even if the blinds are tight. It also seems too good to fold. I can see 3 betting JTs.

I don't think there are any hard rules as to what to do. Much depends on our image, reads, tells etc.