Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-30-2018, 06:54 PM   #2051
ninefingershuffle
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,274
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
I dont like having to post the kill in the SB, so I tend to tighten up a bit when I have the leg up in the BB. Posting the kill on the BTN isnt so bad, so I play normally when I have the leg up in the SB.

In this particular spot, Id lean toward folding. Its definitely NOT a 4 bet or fold spot. In fact, you can make a case for calling everything with which you intend to play. If that were my strategy, Id still fold 33 even though you could argue that calling all pairs is +EV.

22-44 Id fold. Its starts to get more interesting around 55 or 66.
Tightening up with the leg up for sure, but I had some sort of monster in the big blind and beat the now Button out of a massive pot.
ninefingershuffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2018, 08:50 PM   #2052
maka2184
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 772
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
I don’t like having to post the kill in the SB, so I tend to tighten up a bit when I have the leg up in the BB. Posting the kill on the BTN isn’t so bad, so I play normally when I have the leg up in the SB.

In this particular spot, I’d lean toward folding. It’s definitely NOT a 4 bet or fold spot. In fact, you can make a case for calling everything with which you intend to play. If that were my strategy, I’d still fold 33 even though you could argue that calling all pairs is +EV.

22-44 I’d fold. It’s starts to get more interesting around 55 or 66.
Thanks for this

I personally will fold up to 55.

Start 4 betting 66+ especially if cap is 4.

In regards to hot and cold equity and GTO, I'm sure its +EV to call 33+ or call all ranges HERO plays as a kill in SB.

HOWEVER

I personally am too bad of a player to be able to balance having a cold call range in SB on the kill

OR
To Cold Call 3 bets in SB with all hands being played as a kill in SB.

In turn for 33, it would be fold > 4 bet for me but clearly 4 bet is lightning money on fire as many have noted.
maka2184 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2018, 11:59 PM   #2053
ninefingershuffle
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,274
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Lord with the four bet. If not for value, why? Is 66 really a four bet for value out of position?
ninefingershuffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 03:45 AM   #2054
maka2184
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 772
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
Lord with the four bet. If not for value, why? Is 66 really a four bet for value out of position?
Ninefingershuffle, you noted MP who is reasonable raised, then a

"Tilty Button 3 bet"

If a Tilty Button already is tilted, villains I am familiar with will go above and beyond to either bluff raise light post flop with air/bad draws/bad pairs, or call down light as low as Qhi+.

With that said, I generally put ranges of even tilted players with a conservative range of hands but when HERO has direct position on

"Tilty Button who HERO has direct position on"

unless, Tilty button seat changes, you can create havoc for Tilty button on later hands if you start 4 betting light and create game dynamics between tilty button where you can gain multiple bets.

Within this one hand, yes 4 betting 66 may be -EV in terms of hot and cold equity.

However, I argue making tilty button your ATM in the game on later hands with an X% of light 4 betting as SB on kill CAN be profitable.

By X% I would say maybe 5% of time or under depending on play history / meta / game dynamics between HERO and Tilty Button.

That's just how I play and as noted earlier, I play bad and its probably fancy play syndrome.
maka2184 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 10:12 AM   #2055
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,725
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

UTG....very loose. Limps a lot and open raises a lot. I have seen him limp with AK once but I don't know if he always does or was just being tricky. I haven't seen him limp other big hands. He could have any suited, any Ace, Any smaller Broadway etc. He is very agro post flop with draws over cards as well as made hands. He gets to showdown a lot and likes to play sheriff.

CO....Laggy pre flop but tends to take a more passive approach post. He is more likely to underplay a hand than overplay. He is very stubborn and will get to the river a lot but not necessarily showdown.

BB is a tight reg.

UTG open limps, CO raises....folded to me in the SB

What do you do with 66's? QJo?
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 11:41 AM   #2056
maka2184
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 772
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
UTG....very loose. Limps a lot and open raises a lot. I have seen him limp with AK once but I don't know if he always does or was just being tricky. I haven't seen him limp other big hands. He could have any suited, any Ace, Any smaller Broadway etc. He is very agro post flop with draws over cards as well as made hands. He gets to showdown a lot and likes to play sheriff.

CO....Laggy pre flop but tends to take a more passive approach post. He is more likely to underplay a hand than overplay. He is very stubborn and will get to the river a lot but not necessarily showdown.

BB is a tight reg.

UTG open limps, CO raises....folded to me in the SB

What do you do with 66's? QJo?
66: 3 bet from SB

QJo: Fold
maka2184 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 02:58 PM   #2057
rodeo
veteran
 
rodeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: i'll tell you when i get there
Posts: 3,209
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

3 bet 66.

QJo is close. Id probably 3 bet it, but calling is fine too.
rodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 03:24 PM   #2058
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,725
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I agree 66's is a 3 bet.......Are we drawing the line anywhere with pairs? I could see maybe 3 betting 55's as well. I usually just muck 44's or worse.

I usually just call QJo...This is bottom of my range. Are you calling much worse? I'd consider 3 betting QJo against a different line up. These guy's are too sticky post.
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 03:46 PM   #2059
rodeo
veteran
 
rodeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: i'll tell you when i get there
Posts: 3,209
Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I agree 66's is a 3 bet.......Are we drawing the line anywhere with pairs? I could see maybe 3 betting 55's as well. I usually just muck 44's or worse.

I usually just call QJo...This is bottom of my range. Are you calling much worse? I'd consider 3 betting QJo against a different line up. These guy's are too sticky post.


55-22 can call. I dont like to fold hands that may be best right now while getting a decent price.

QTo Id call and Q9o Id fold. QJo is fine to call, but Id 3 bet it in some situations. QTs Id 3 bet.

Last edited by rodeo; 12-01-2018 at 04:10 PM.
rodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 03:55 PM   #2060
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,725
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
55-22 can call. I dont like to fold hands that may be best right now while getting a decent price.

QTo Id call and Q9o Id fold. QJo is fine to call, but Id 3 bet it is some situations. QTs Id 3 bet.
Thanks!
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 04:20 PM   #2061
maka2184
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 772
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
55-22 can call. I dont like to fold hands that may be best right now while getting a decent price.

QTo Id call and Q9o Id fold. QJo is fine to call, but Id 3 bet it in some situations. QTs Id 3 bet.
Thanks for this.

We can agree to disagree on call with QJo

BUT

Per expert friend who used to prop 5/10 LHE - 10/20 LHE 6 tabling advocated balance doesn't really apply when playing Live vs Loose Passive / LAG fish.

In turn, from a real life 20/40 experience I can agree cold calling with QJo or QTo is correct.


HOWEVER

3BB/100 crusher from 20/40 advocates 3 bet or fold with QJo here so I'd lean toward Fold > 3bet > Call because I play bad
maka2184 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 05:52 PM   #2062
rodeo
veteran
 
rodeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: i'll tell you when i get there
Posts: 3,209
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maka2184 View Post
Thanks for this.



We can agree to disagree on call with QJo



BUT



Per expert friend who used to prop 5/10 LHE - 10/20 LHE 6 tabling advocated balance doesn't really apply when playing Live vs Loose Passive / LAG fish.



In turn, from a real life 20/40 experience I can agree cold calling with QJo or QTo is correct.





HOWEVER



3BB/100 crusher from 20/40 advocates 3 bet or fold with QJo here so I'd lean toward Fold > 3bet > Call because I play bad


If I were the BTN or had position on the PFRer, Id play raise or fold. I like to face the blinds/limper with two bets and increase the likelihood that Ill have ultimate position post flop. The situation described above is different in two ways,

1. Were in the SB and therefor are getting a better price.

2. Were in the SB and therefor must play the entire hand with the worst position.

Its mainly because of these two factors that I employ all three options of fold, call, and raise pre flop.

I agree that balance isnt really something one should spend much time worrying about once the pot has gone off 4+ ways. But being balanced doesnt necessarily mean we play raise or fold or that in order to be balanced we should make our decisions binary. On the contrary, true balance uses a mixed strategy where we employ each option at a certain frequency.
rodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 09:12 AM   #2063
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,725
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

5 handed 20/40

The player to my left is loose, cold calls a fair amount, 3 bets seem to be strong hands. He is sticky and tricky post flop.

The button is a strong Lag/Tag.

Blinds are tight.

I am UTG.....What would you do with these hands? T8s, K8s, QTo, 55's, A5s
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 09:17 AM   #2064
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Bob148's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: takin it to the streets
Posts: 10,287
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I'd raise A5s, 55, and K8s.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 12:13 PM   #2065
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Old Man Red Bull (he/him)
Posts: 9,750
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

In the hijack, against unknowns I would open with all of those except QTo.

Against a villain in the cutoff as describe, I would tighten up, with a bias towards value (e.g. pairs and bigger aces). I would fold all of these except possibly 55.
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 07:13 PM   #2066
rodeo
veteran
 
rodeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: i'll tell you when i get there
Posts: 3,209
Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
5 handed 20/40

The player to my left is loose, cold calls a fair amount, 3 bets seem to be strong hands. He is sticky and tricky post flop.

The button is a strong Lag/Tag.

Blinds are tight.

I am UTG.....What would you do with these hands? T8s, K8s, QTo, 55's, A5s

F, R, F, F, R

Move seats.
rodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 07:39 PM   #2067
TheHip41
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TheHip41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 26,621
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
15/30, kill on so 20/40

Im the kill in the sb (20), mp who is reasonable raises, Tilty button 3 bets. Do I call here getting 4ish to 1? I have 33


Fold
TheHip41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2018, 11:07 AM   #2068
DalTXColtsFan
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: contributing to the poker economy
Posts: 3,266
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I haven't read all 82 pages, but I haven't seen a lot of posts about defending the big blind. In the 4/8 game I play I'm very rarely in a situation where I'm in the BB, someone open-raised, and there are 0 or 1 callers.

When I'm in a very likely multiway pot situation, I tend to call with hands that play well multiway, 3-bet preemies and fold everything else.

In a 4/8 game, I don't like defending my BB heads-up or even 3-way because the relative rake is so high it basically cancels out the advantage of only having to put in one small bet. Also, few villains are positionally aware with their raises - their raising range is essentially the same between UTG and the button.

"The Intelligent poker player" does a good job of discussing what to think about when defending the big blind heads up, as does HEPFAP, but I'm sure those discussions apply more to stakes where the rake is a much lower percentage of the pot.

Getting to the point: I guess my only real question is, is big-blind defense something to really worry about in a 4/8 game where most pots are going off multiway? (P.S. if I'm ever in a 4/8 game where I'm frequently seeing 2- and 3-way pots on the flop I'm racking the hell up).
DalTXColtsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2018, 01:33 PM   #2069
maka2184
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 772
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
I haven't read all 82 pages, but I haven't seen a lot of posts about defending the big blind. In the 4/8 game I play I'm very rarely in a situation where I'm in the BB, someone open-raised, and there are 0 or 1 callers.

When I'm in a very likely multiway pot situation, I tend to call with hands that play well multiway, 3-bet preemies and fold everything else.

In a 4/8 game, I don't like defending my BB heads-up or even 3-way because the relative rake is so high it basically cancels out the advantage of only having to put in one small bet. Also, few villains are positionally aware with their raises - their raising range is essentially the same between UTG and the button.

"The Intelligent poker player" does a good job of discussing what to think about when defending the big blind heads up, as does HEPFAP, but I'm sure those discussions apply more to stakes where the rake is a much lower percentage of the pot.

Getting to the point: I guess my only real question is, is big-blind defense something to really worry about in a 4/8 game where most pots are going off multiway? (P.S. if I'm ever in a 4/8 game where I'm frequently seeing 2- and 3-way pots on the flop I'm racking the hell up).
Yes I argue BB defense is critical in HU pots or 3 way pots.

Even if rake is that bad at 4/8, then consider moving up stakes if possible.

Even at 3/6 online as a prop, BB defense was critical. Not s fair comparison since this was when I used to prop online and get 100% rakeback 3/6+ LHE like 10 years ago.
maka2184 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2018, 07:33 PM   #2070
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 12,962
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

No ladder to move up where he plays. Live low limit is much different than online.

I think you're right to play very tight when defending the BB hu or even 3 way in a high rake environment. Also right to look for a different game if it's happening often. You're probably doing everything right.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2018, 09:36 PM   #2071
SetofJacks
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,343
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maka2184 View Post
Yes I argue BB defense is critical in HU pots or 3 way pots.

Even if rake is that bad at 4/8, then consider moving up stakes if possible.

Even at 3/6 online as a prop, BB defense was critical. Not s fair comparison since this was when I used to prop online and get 100% rakeback 3/6+ LHE like 10 years ago.
Even without rakeback, online rake was usually only 3% with a max of $3. Much different than live rake of 10% up to at least $5 + probably $2 jackpot.
SetofJacks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2018, 11:04 PM   #2072
DalTXColtsFan
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: contributing to the poker economy
Posts: 3,266
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
No ladder to move up where he plays.
Correct, 4/8 is the only limit game I've ever seen run there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
Even without rakeback, online rake was usually only 3% with a max of $3. Much different than live rake of 10% up to at least $5 + probably $2 jackpot.
I think there's actually a $3 drop, and they take half the small blind for the BBJ, and there's a $1 tip expected, so if I defend the BB against a single raiser, I'm calling $4 to win $9 instead of $14. And I'm OOP. Pretty sick.
DalTXColtsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2019, 12:58 PM   #2073
FlopKAtcher
stranger
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 5
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Would you say these are all standard folds? This is a 9 handed 4/8 game during a high hand promotiom where many players like to see the flop.

Hand 1: Cutoff with KTo. 4 limpers.

Hand 2: Button with Jh5h. 4 limpers.

Hand 3: Highjack with 78o. 3 limpers.
FlopKAtcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2019, 01:31 PM   #2074
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 12,962
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I'd play hand 1.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2019, 02:00 PM   #2075
mongidig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,725
Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlopKAtcher View Post
Would you say these are all standard folds? This is a 9 handed 4/8 game during a high hand promotiom where many players like to see the flop.

Hand 1: Cutoff with KTo. 4 limpers.

Hand 2: Button with Jh5h. 4 limpers.

Hand 3: Highjack with 78o. 3 limpers.
Hand 1) overlimp

Hand 2) fold...Do you guy's call with 6 limpers?

Hand 3) Fold..Do you guy's call JTo?
mongidig is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online