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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 04-13-2018, 11:20 AM   #1751
mongidig
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Loose player limps ep...He has a normal pre flop raising range, TAG raises HJ....folded to me in SB. BB is tight.

How would you play KJo? KQo?
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:44 PM   #1752
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
How low do you go with Jacks in this spot?

What percentage of hands are you continuing with here?
The best LHE player in Washington state wandered into my local casino last night and his approach to blind defense is much different than mine. I'm a liberal blind defender and I saw him fold his big in a raised pot with six other players in it and he told me after the hand that he had J2o. I would definitely NOT fold there. He also basically said that he doesn't give a **** about the math of the situation.

My takeaway was that if folding there is a leak, it's probably not a big one. I prefer to play as correctly as mathematically possible, however. I certainly don't think blind defense has negatively affected my results over the last several years.

With that said, I would call with J2o in your spot as well, but maybe this is a spot worth spending some stove time on.
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:46 PM   #1753
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

No need to stove


It’s a fold with J2o


Obv any two suited its and easy call

I would call down to j8o. Just want to flop a gut shot
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:47 PM   #1754
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Loose player limps ep...He has a normal pre flop raising range, TAG raises HJ....folded to me in SB. BB is tight.

How would you play KJo? KQo?
I would want to see some showdowns in similar spots before I got involved with either of these hands. Let's say you fold here and the TAG shows up with 55 or Q9 suited - you can start considering 3-betting the hands you just folded when this dynamic comes up. Exploit the exploiters.
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:49 PM   #1755
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
No need to stove


It’s a fold with J2o


Obv any two suited its and easy call

I would call down to j8o. Just want to flop a gut shot
I was thinking this might be too loose here. If it is, I would call down to J7o though.
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:54 PM   #1756
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I’ll admit I’m not a master with the sim software but...



Not sure how well I input the criteria, but "it's a fold" seems a bit too strong of a conclusion for something that looks like it leans call. I'm not saying folding is a mistake, but it seems way too close to simply dismiss as a fold. Unless I'm missing something?
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:14 PM   #1757
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

No simulation software accounts for the reverse implied odds and poor playability of having terrible position and a deuce in your hand.
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:18 PM   #1758
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

We have great relative position for our hand type though, does that not count for anything?
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:28 PM   #1759
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

How do you even know what your relative position is? The position of the raiser was not given.

Also not sure what you mean by hand type. Is "piece of crap" a type?
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Old 04-15-2018, 09:21 PM   #1760
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
How do you even know what your relative position is? The position of the raiser was not given.

Also not sure what you mean by hand type. Is "piece of crap" a type?
"Laggy SB raised"

And yeah, "piece of crap" is essentially the hand type I'm referring to. Hands that will flop weak holdings and will need to raise for protection, rather than a hand that can flop a strong hand or draw and would like to trap the field.
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Old 04-15-2018, 10:08 PM   #1761
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
"Laggy SB raised"
That was a different hand, although the two were being compared.

In the one where DK said the best player folded J2o, he did not say where the raise came from.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:05 AM   #1762
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
That was a different hand, although the two were being compared.

In the one where DK said the best player folded J2o, he did not say where the raise came from.
I thought we were talking about how far down we'd go in the J8o hand, and tdk said J2o, and we were discussing the merits of defending with such a bad hand in that spot.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:16 AM   #1763
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Speaking of crap.

I post in CO...first hand of the day.

A couple folds 9 handed, a TAG raises, folded to me....I have 74o..What should I do? The players to my left are somewhat loose.
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Old 04-16-2018, 02:03 PM   #1764
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I don't fold many hands in that spot and 74 is definitely not one of them.
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Old 04-16-2018, 02:23 PM   #1765
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
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I don't fold many hands in that spot and 74 is definitely not one of them.
We are getting 4 to 1 here. If we were on the button and 3 playere limped were I hadn't posted, we would be getting 4 to 1 but we certainly wouldn't call. Plus more strength has been shown in the first situation and we have better position in the second.

What am I missing?
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Old 04-16-2018, 03:15 PM   #1766
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I would say 4-1 is more attractive when you have a bet in already than when you don’t.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:00 PM   #1767
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
I would say 4-1 is more attractive when you have a bet in already than when you don’t.
I don't think this is a good reason.

Getting the same odds but with fewer people fighting for the pot could be a better reason to defend. Personally I would defend a cutoff post with weaker hands than I would limp, but I wouldn't go as low as 74o.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:48 AM   #1768
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I think if you’re going to fold 74o here then you might as well just wait til the big blind to come in. Posting seems like a bad idea if you’re going to be a nit about it.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:59 AM   #1769
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
I think if you’re going to fold 74o here then you might as well just wait til the big blind to come in. Posting seems like a bad idea if you’re going to be a nit about it.
Doesn't that have to be in the bottom 5% of hands? You're awfully strict in your nittiness judgement. Did you call the "best LHE player in WA" a nit as well?
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Old 04-17-2018, 01:02 AM   #1770
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I may have! I was shocked when he folded there.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and guess that 74o is not a bottom 5% hand. I feel like I should know this but it seems intuitive to me.
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:56 AM   #1771
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

I still don't get why it's a call in the post situation but it wouldn't be in the limp situation.
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:05 AM   #1772
mongidig
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

We post in the CO. It's folded to us. We take a look but are raising 100% of the time.

If you have players to your left who know this and will take advamtage of this, does it make sense to play it this way? Does it make more sense to wait for the BB blind?

I see this all the time....player posts, pretends to look, raises, player on button 3 bets, poster insta folds on flop.

I love it when a TAG posts to my right.
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Old 04-18-2018, 04:52 PM   #1773
TheDarkKnight
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

In the post situation you have a blind out there; in the limper situation you have nothing out there. 4-1 sounds much better to me when I have a bet in the pot already.

I think if you are going to get pwnd a bunch when you post then waiting for the big makes more sense.

If you are uncomfortable defending wide or raising wide or playing 3-bet pots out of position with a weak range then posting seems like a bad idea... unless you want to get better at these spots or wish to embrace the challenge of the situation.

Also... if Flopzilla is a good resource, looks like 74o is at the top of the bottom 15% of all hands.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
10,301,220,864 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
7432.35% 3,283,213,22899,129,176
30%67.65% 6,918,878,46099,129,176

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
7,068,390,912 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
7431.24% 2,179,872,93656,081,084
20%68.76% 4,832,436,89256,081,084

I'll admit I haven't done the work on these spots before but it seems rather intuitive to me. Also, if you are playing well postflop you should win more than your fair share of pots - like when you flop a gutshot and play it aggressively when they have air or bluff boards that are favorable to your range and unfavorable to their range, etc.

Last edited by TheDarkKnight; 04-18-2018 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 04-20-2018, 09:18 AM   #1774
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

UTG posts straddle...He s loose but doesn't seem overly agro pre. He may be a bit tilted from getting crushed right away in the early part of his session......MP calls..He is very loose passive pre. His pre flop raising range is basically a typical UTG range no matter were he is at.....It's folded to me in the HJ with A8o....The blinds are pretty loose and will call a 3 bet here a fair amount.....The CO and button are TAGs. I have a tight image.

How do you proceed?
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Old 04-20-2018, 10:19 AM   #1775
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Re: Pre flop check up posts.

Don't like any option but like calling the least.
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